Are you okay with those new default styles?

Hi everyone,

would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty)
template:


      http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott

      Alex


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Hi Alex,

Overall: great. I like the coloured accent very much.

There are a couple things, though:

#1 Would you mind removing the small-caps from the headlines? These
aren't font-provided small caps, but forced ones whose proportions
differ from what a typographer would provide with a font (i. e. their
lines are two thin for the given font size) – long story short,
typographers would hate us for doing this in our defaults
#2 The difference between Heading 1 and Heading 2 font size is too
large – make Heading 2 and 3 larger, please
#3 Heading and Heading 1 have some marginal difference in appearance,
although it looks like there should be none at all
#4 Looking at the distance (kerning) between the "a" and the "d" in
"Heading 1," it seems the DejaVu Light font is not quite ready for
primetime, can you revert to normal DejaVu (which looks better)?
#5 Heading 4 to 10 should surely have larger font sizes (Heading 6 has
a 9pt font size, much smaller than the body text!)
#6 Signature uses FreeSans, not DejaVu/Liberation Serif

Hope that helps,

Astron.

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Hi

I love it that someone finely started to look at the default styles.
There are much
room for improvement. Besides Astrons comments I'd like to ask:

Before I begin I'd like to say that I think there are a lot of potential
in this template.
Keep that in mind if I start to sound bitter. :)

There are a lot of changes to styles hidden in this template. How would
you feel
about starting with smaller steps? Could you start from a clean document
and
just change what you want to update?

Do we really want numbered headings (Outline Numbering) as default? If I
were to
write a simple letter or document I definitely wouldn't want that. To me
that belongs
to books, reports and longer documents that most likely will be created
using a template.
If we want to keep the Outline Numbering could we add a space separator
after the
numbering so that when adding a table of contents you at least get a
space after the
chapter numbering.

Why so much distance between paragraphs in the paragraph styles Contents
1-10

Table heading and table contents also has lots and lots of space around
it, do we
really want that much space as default?

The character style "Index Link" which is used by default in table of
contents is set
to the font Calibri, we probably don't want that.

Could we decrease the size of the Paragraph style Contents Heading a
bit, the blue
color is nice but it's a bit big for my taste.

The margins on the page style Defalut has changed, we should probably change
at least First Page, Left Page and Right Page. It would probably be a
good idea to
change Endnote, Footnote and Index as well. Though I have never really
used them
myself but they seem to have the same margins as default today.

There are quite a few custom styles (character and paragraph). Do we
really want
that in a template that is going to be default? At this point I don't
think that their
names will be possible to localize. I might be wrong though.

Sorry for commenting on this so late, and for sounding so bitter. I'm
really not I just
think that we might be rushing things a bit. I would love to see the
styles updated.

Since I haven't been involved on this list before maybe you shouldn't
listen to closely to me.

Regards,
Niklas Johansson


Alexander Wilms skrev 2012-06-12 16:03:
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Hi
Sorry to jump in so late, I am a bit scared if I undestand this template as
"all my new documents will be based on this template".

First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an
endless debate...

Second, - I have not tested -  LO may warn me that my legacy documents have
new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a
shoot in the head of document preservation.

Did I get it totally wrong? Please enlight me.

regards

Olivier



2012/6/12 Alexander Wilms <[hidden email]>


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Olivier Hallot
Founder and Steering Commitee Member
The Document Foundation

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Hi Olivier,

> First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an
> endless debate...

Sure, yet... staying with Arial and TNR, aping Office 2000 is not
really an option either, though.

> Second, - I have not tested -  LO may warn me that my legacy documents have
> new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a
> shoot in the head of document preservation.

That's an interesting (theoretical) problem – can you test, please, though?
My logic says, this shouldn't happen, also, the styles are usually
embedded within the document.

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) skrev 2012-06-12 20:19: Nothing will happen to our current documents since none of them are
based on the
Avantgarde.ott template. Though if we want to make any changes to
Avantgarde.ott
templates later and keep the name and location of the template - then
the user will
get a question if he/she wants to update the styles. We need to avoid that.

Hmm... Interesting, it seems that it does not even have to be in the
same location
just in one of the installed paths or set as default template.

I have no idea what happens if we change one of the "built in styles"
which is the
long term goal as I understand it.

Regards,
Niklas Johansson


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Hi

2012/6/12 Niklas Johansson <[hidden email]>

Yes that is what I'm thinking... I just didn't know it was restricted to
template name and not the "default" template.


>
> Hmm... Interesting, it seems that it does not even have to be in the same
> location
> just in one of the installed paths or set as default template.
>
> I have no idea what happens if we change one of the "built in styles"
> which is the
> long term goal as I understand it.
>

The only attributes you can change on the built-in styles are in Tools -
Options - Writer - Basic fonts. When changing them, all new documents based
on the default template will carry the changes.

If we offer Avantgarde.ott as one document template (among others), that is
ok for me. To offer it as default template is another story.

Regards
--
Olivier Hallot
Founder and Steering Commitee Member
The Document Foundation

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> Hi everyone,
>
> would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty)
> template:
>
>
>       http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott
>
>       Alex
Hi,

I object to the use of serif fonts for default. It's the first thing I change.
Is it an American obsession? in Europe, a larger proportion of  magazines with
typographical insight, use sans serif for body text nowadays.

I know all the well trodden but generally evidence sparse arguments for serif
body fonts. The argument is at least as much about the aesthetic as it is
about the physiological and psychological aspects of readability. In fact, on
most screens sans is more readable than serif. I'd happily coexist with the
serif-ims, if only they wouldn't always impose their creed on us sans-ites. I
suggest we have two equivalent templates (one sans and one serif) and make
template choice easier (it's not a great UX at the moment). That way both
camps could be satisfied

Cheers,

Greg



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Hi all,

I see improvements and I see shortcomes. I'm no specialist, just want to point things that jump to my eye.
First, I agree with most of Niklas comments. I see some hidden changes we probably wouldn't want included: Calibri font in many styles, odd margins in default page, custom styles (shouldn't these be added to the default ones?). Not sure about the colors choice, but I guess it was a good choice to pick one instead of leaving everything black. I'm also still not sure about outline numbering in the headings. It could serve as advertising the tool, but maybe leave this to Headings 4 and ahead would be best. Headings 2 and 3 are too much used in contexts where we don't want numbering, like Niklas said. I also like the new default fonts.

Of less importance, I see that Heading 10 is linked with Heading, while Headings 1-9 are linked with Default, on the same hierarquical level as Heading. Plus, Default style has a 1,5 line spacing (which oddly doesn't show in the Organizer tab), plus a 0,35cm above and below the paragraph. These are just too much. I'd suggest picking only below paragraph.

On the other hand, and more importantly, Default style has First Line Indent as next paragraph. We should realize this is a major shift in the paragraph style use (unless I'm plainly mistaken). It would mean people wouldn't be using Default style after the first paragraph, but First Line Indent instead. I believe this is a good thing, as they would be more aware of using styles. First Line Indent is very descriptive so it would help understanding there is a whole plenty of choice of paragraphs (I'm thinking of really layman users, who wouldn't touch a setting that says "default"), and it's a good style for a text body, so they are not forced to change if they want to stick with direct formatting. I believe this change is a real step forward, and I would really like to see it applied.

Cheers to all./



Alexander Wilms skrev 2012-06-12 16:03:


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Hi Alex,

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Alexander Wilms
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty)
> template:
>
>
>     http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott
>

Based on a quick review, I found a number of problems with it, the biggest
of which are the fonts.
Calibri is used quite often. The default template, of course, shouldn't use
it, as it's proprietary and available to only those who install MS Office
2007+.
Here's a list of styles this font appears in: Bibliography 1, Caption,
Contents 3-10, Drawing, Illustration Index 1, Index, Index 1-3, Index
Separator, all of List (except Headings, Content, Indent, and Paragraph),
all Numbering, Object Index 1, Table, Table Index 1, Text, and User Index
1-10.
Additionally, we shouldn't use DejaVu fonts as they aren't
metric-compatible with Times, Arial, or Courier New.
DejaVu Sans appears in: Bibliography Heading, Contents Heading, Heading,
Heading 1, Illustration Index Heading, Index Heading, Object Index Heading,
Preformatted Text, Table Index Heading, and User Index Heading.
We have the same problem with FreeSans, which is only used in the Signature
style.
All of these fonts should be changed to their Liberation counterpart, which
is metric-compatible with Arial, Times, and Courier New, which means that
the layout of documents written with this font will be preserved on every
computer (as these fonts, or at least their metrics, are universally
supported).

Another bother: font sizes.
It's quite annoying that headings 6-10 look identical, which means the
hierarchy doesn't get across. Adding fuel to the fire, the text below
headings 4-10 is actually bigger than the headings themselves. The
numbering before headings 2-4 and non-integer font sizes also bother me.
I'd suggest font size 24 for Heading 1, then, for the rest of the headings,
font sizes from 20 to 12, steadily decreasing by one (i.e. H2: 20, H3: 19,
H4: 18, ...).

Other than that, the document should be black-and-white, given that
monochrome printers are widely used. Styles that used color were mainly
those that used the DejaVu Sans font, along with "Intense Quote" and
"Title". "Heading" and "Heading 10" should be justified just like the rest
of the headings. There should be no custom styles (there are enough styles
already). Lastly, frame contents should have no background.

Given all of these bugs, it should be easier to base a new set of styles on
our current defaults.

All of this said, would it be alright if I made a playground for the
default styles?

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Olivier Hallot skrev 2012-06-12 21:30:
> The only attributes you can change on the built-in styles are in Tools -
> Options - Writer - Basic fonts. When changing them, all new documents based
> on the default template will carry the changes.
Forgot to look there before.

And there we got the Callibri font for lists, captions and indexes. Of
course for default styles this is were we need to specify what font we
want to use, not directly in the style. Since the styles Heading 1,
Heading 2 etc. isn't based on the style Heading a change of Heading
style in the options dialog will have no effect on Heading 1 etc. We
probably don't want to break this functionality this way.

Oh I noticed another problem. The outline level of Heading 1 is Body
text, Heading 2 has level 1, Heading 3 has level 2 etc... In other words
Avantgarde.ott uses Heading 1 as Heading, Heading 2 as Heading 1 etc.

Regards,
Niklas Johansson


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Le 14/06/2012 01:36, Mirek M. a écrit :
>
> Another bother: font sizes.
> It's quite annoying that headings 6-10 look identical, which means the
> hierarchy doesn't get across. Adding fuel to the fire, the text below
> headings 4-10 is actually bigger than the headings themselves. The
> numbering before headings 2-4 and non-integer font sizes also bother me.
> I'd suggest font size 24 for Heading 1, then, for the rest of the headings,
> font sizes from 20 to 12, steadily decreasing by one (i.e. H2: 20, H3: 19,
> H4: 18, ...).

Shouldn't font sizes be better specified using percentages for linked
styles? This allows for fast global changes.

--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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