Design Tenets Proposal

> Hey all,
>
> One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction for
> the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me realize
> the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
>  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think LibreOffice
> ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
>
> *The Goals:*
>
>    - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is by
>    far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
>    LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>    menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.  The
>    easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
>    right-click menu.
>    - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
>    retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four years
>    ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of displaying
>    program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens, but
>    let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and LibreOffice is
>    extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office suite, let's
>    pave the way for others to build on.
>    - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>    want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>    ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>
> *The Tenets:*
>
>    - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
>    viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
>    dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users expect
>    these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be live
>    previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
>    individually to see what the differences are.
>    - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
>    common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
>    users' mastery of the software.
>    - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
>    Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
>    features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
>    - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have table
>    tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a document
>    selected.
>
> Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very well
> could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather everyone's,
> so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please reply to this
> so we can come up with a general UX direction for this incredible project!
>
> Scott
>
> P.S. Sorry for the re-post - I sent this just before the list changed
> addresses, so I'm re-posting it with the new one!
>

> Scott
>
> On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 13:49 -0600, Scott Pledger wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> > proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction
> for
> > the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me
> realize
> > the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
> >  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think
> LibreOffice
> > ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> > release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> > achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
> >
> > *The Goals:*
> >
> >    - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is
> by
> >    far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my
> clients use
> >    LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
> >    menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.
>  The
> >    easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
> >    right-click menu.
> >    - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
> >    retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four
> years
> >    ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of
> displaying
> >    program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens,
> but
> >    let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and
> LibreOffice is
> >    extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office suite,
> let's
> >    pave the way for others to build on.
> >    - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
> >    want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
> >    ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
> >
> > *The Tenets:*
> >
> >    - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
> >    viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to
> pop-up
> >    dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users
> expect
> >    these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be
> live
> >    previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
> >    individually to see what the differences are.
> >    - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
> >    common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
> >    users' mastery of the software.
> >    - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
> >    Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
> >    features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
> >    - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have
> table
> >    tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a
> document
> >    selected.
> >
> > Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> > change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very
> well
> > could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> > ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather
> everyone's,
> > so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please reply to
> this
> > so we can come up with a general UX direction for this incredible
> project!
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > P.S. Sorry for the re-post - I sent this just before the list changed
> > addresses, so I'm re-posting it with the new one!
> >
>
> You brought good points about what our underlaying philosophy should be
> with a good focus on the users. The point about consistency across LO so
> users find the same look and feel everywhere is important.
>
> To some extent everyone using menus is reusing the systems first used on
> the Apple Lisa and first Macs (which may have been very similar to the
> Xerox originals). I forget where the keyboard shortcuts came from but
> they also are based on old system used in the late 70's and early 80's.
>
> As far as UI, my concerns are not do something because someone else is
> doing it. We should try understand the reasons why others are moving to
> different UIs not copy them. If we believe those issues are true with
> our UI then we are probably looking at similar solutions done by others.
> Then we should study the other implementations for their good and bad
> points. MS and Calligra have some very interesting ideas about the UI. I
> think Calligra has a better idea but I do not think they executed very
> well. And after reviewing the issues we may decide both MS and Calligra
> are going down wrong paths and we must develop another or refine the
> current UI.
>
> There appears to be a lot of ideas coming out of the Linux community and
> from the netbooks and tablets about UI. Some will not work for us
> because of the technical requirements and how the LO is used.
>
> --
> Jay Lozier
> [hidden email]
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

> Hey all,
>
> One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction for
> the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me realize
> the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
>   Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think LibreOffice
> ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
>
> *The Goals:*
>
>     - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is by
>     far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
>     LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>     menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.  The
>     easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
>     right-click menu.
>     - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
>     retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four years
>     ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of displaying
>     program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens, but
>     let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and LibreOffice is
>     extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office suite, let's
>     pave the way for others to build on.
>     - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>     want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>     ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>
> *The Tenets:*
>
>     - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
>     viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
>     dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users expect
>     these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be live
>     previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
>     individually to see what the differences are.
>     - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
>     common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
>     users' mastery of the software.
>     - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
>     Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
>     features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
>     - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have table
>     tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a document
>     selected.
>
> Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very well
> could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather everyone's,
> so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please reply to this
> so we can come up with a general UX direction for this incredible project!
>
> Scott
>
> P.S. Sorry for the re-post - I sent this just before the list changed
> addresses, so I'm re-posting it with the new one!
>

> Hey all,
>
> One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction for
> the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me realize
> the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
>  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think LibreOffice
> ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
>
> *The Goals:*
>
>   - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is by
>   far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
>   LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>   menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.  The
>   easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
>   right-click menu.
>   - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
>   retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four years
>   ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of displaying
>   program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens, but
>   let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and LibreOffice is
>   extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office suite, let's
>   pave the way for others to build on.
>   - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>   want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>   ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>
> *The Tenets:*
>
>   - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
>   viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
>   dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users expect
>   these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be live
>   previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
>   individually to see what the differences are.
>   - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
>   common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
>   users' mastery of the software.
>   - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
>   Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
>   features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
>   - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have table
>   tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a document
>   selected.
>
> Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very well
> could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather everyone's,
> so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please reply to this
> so we can come up with a general UX direction for this incredible project!
>
> Scott
>

> 2011/6/17 Scott Pledger <[hidden email]>:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> > proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction
> for
> > the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me
> realize
> > the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
> >  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think
> LibreOffice
> > ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> > release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> > achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
> >
> > *The Goals:*
> >
> >   - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is by
> >   far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients
> use
> >   LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
> >   menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.  The
> >   easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
> >   right-click menu.
> >   - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
> >   retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four
> years
> >   ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of displaying
> >   program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens,
> but
> >   let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and
> LibreOffice is
> >   extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office suite,
> let's
> >   pave the way for others to build on.
> >   - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
> >   want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
> >   ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
> >
> > *The Tenets:*
> >
> >   - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
> >   viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
> >   dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users
> expect
> >   these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be
> live
> >   previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
> >   individually to see what the differences are.
> >   - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
> >   common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
> >   users' mastery of the software.
> >   - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
> >   Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
> >   features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
> >   - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have
> table
> >   tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a
> document
> >   selected.
> >
> > Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> > change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very
> well
> > could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> > ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather
> everyone's,
> > so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please reply to
> this
> > so we can come up with a general UX direction for this incredible
> project!
> >
> > Scott
> >
>
> I only have one comment to your e-mail: you use the word "user"
> several times, but THE user is something impossible to define.
> It is a fact of life that you cannot please everyone, and a great
> design for some people will be a disaster for others so first of all
> we need to define the "user CASE".
> An invoice is not the same than a technical manual, and a technical
> manual is not the same than a scholar's essay full of old ligatures
> and typographical variants.
> So ideally we would need a UI flexible enough to adapt to as many user
> cases as possible, then identify the elements needed for each user
> case, "group" those elements on different "user case UIs" and finally
> provide a way to switch from one user case to the other.
> That's a HUGE, almost impossible task...
> The alternative (but I think it should be the chosen path) is to
> provide a flexible enough UI that it is easy to configure and have a
> "reasonable" (yes, we need to define "reasonably") set of default
> values to start from so each user can quickly build what they need
> without effort and without costly "learning curves".
> Cheers
> Ricardo
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

> 2011/6/17 Scott Pledger <[hidden email]>:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> > proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction for
> > the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me realize
> > the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
> >  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think LibreOffice
> > ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> > release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> > achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
> >
> > *The Goals:*
> >
> >   - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is by
> >   far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
> >   LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
> >   menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.  The
> >   easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
> >   right-click menu.
> >   - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
> >   retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four years
> >   ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of displaying
> >   program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens, but
> >   let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and LibreOffice is
> >   extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office suite, let's
> >   pave the way for others to build on.
> >   - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
> >   want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
> >   ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
> >
> > *The Tenets:*
> >
> >   - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
> >   viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
> >   dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users expect
> >   these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be live
> >   previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
> >   individually to see what the differences are.
> >   - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
> >   common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
> >   users' mastery of the software.
> >   - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
> >   Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
> >   features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
> >   - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have table
> >   tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a document
> >   selected.
> >
> > Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> > change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very well
> > could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> > ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather everyone's,
> > so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please reply to this
> > so we can come up with a general UX direction for this incredible project!
> >
> > Scott
> >
>
> I only have one comment to your e-mail: you use the word "user"
> several times, but THE user is something impossible to define.
> It is a fact of life that you cannot please everyone, and a great
> design for some people will be a disaster for others so first of all
> we need to define the "user CASE".
> An invoice is not the same than a technical manual, and a technical
> manual is not the same than a scholar's essay full of old ligatures
> and typographical variants.
> So ideally we would need a UI flexible enough to adapt to as many user
> cases as possible, then identify the elements needed for each user
> case, "group" those elements on different "user case UIs" and finally
> provide a way to switch from one user case to the other.
> That's a HUGE, almost impossible task...
> The alternative (but I think it should be the chosen path) is to
> provide a flexible enough UI that it is easy to configure and have a
> "reasonable" (yes, we need to define "reasonably") set of default
> values to start from so each user can quickly build what they need
> without effort and without costly "learning curves".
> Cheers
> Ricardo
>

> Ricardo
>
> On Sat, 2011-06-18 at 10:46 +0200, RGB ES wrote:
>
> > 2011/6/17 Scott Pledger <[hidden email]>:
> > > Hey all,
> > >
> > > One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> > > proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true
> direction for
> > > the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me
> realize
> > > the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
> > >  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think
> LibreOffice
> > > ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> > > release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> > > achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
> > >
> > > *The Goals:*
> > >
> > >   - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is
> by
> > >   far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my
> clients use
> > >   LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
> > >   menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.
>  The
> > >   easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
> > >   right-click menu.
> > >   - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*
>  LibreOffice
> > >   retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four
> years
> > >   ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of
> displaying
> > >   program features for less fully-featured software and smaller
> screens, but
> > >   let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and
> LibreOffice is
> > >   extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office suite,
> let's
> > >   pave the way for others to build on.
> > >   - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
> > >   want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
> > >   ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
> > >
> > > *The Tenets:*
> > >
> > >   - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
> > >   viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to
> pop-up
> > >   dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users
> expect
> > >   these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be
> live
> > >   previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
> > >   individually to see what the differences are.
> > >   - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the
> 'most
> > >   common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while
> increasing
> > >   users' mastery of the software.
> > >   - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
> > >   Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
> > >   features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
> > >   - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have
> table
> > >   tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a
> document
> > >   selected.
> > >
> > > Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> > > change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very
> well
> > > could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> > > ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather
> everyone's,
> > > so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please reply to
> this
> > > so we can come up with a general UX direction for this incredible
> project!
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> >
> > I only have one comment to your e-mail: you use the word "user"
> > several times, but THE user is something impossible to define.
> > It is a fact of life that you cannot please everyone, and a great
> > design for some people will be a disaster for others so first of all
> > we need to define the "user CASE".
> > An invoice is not the same than a technical manual, and a technical
> > manual is not the same than a scholar's essay full of old ligatures
> > and typographical variants.
> > So ideally we would need a UI flexible enough to adapt to as many user
> > cases as possible, then identify the elements needed for each user
> > case, "group" those elements on different "user case UIs" and finally
> > provide a way to switch from one user case to the other.
> > That's a HUGE, almost impossible task...
> > The alternative (but I think it should be the chosen path) is to
> > provide a flexible enough UI that it is easy to configure and have a
> > "reasonable" (yes, we need to define "reasonably") set of default
> > values to start from so each user can quickly build what they need
> > without effort and without costly "learning curves".
> > Cheers
> > Ricardo
> >
>
> I agree about the users will need to customize the UI for their
> particular needs. This is one area where MS made a mistake with the
> Ribbon. It is not that easy to customize by the user. On problem I have
> noticed with many users is they will not experiment with many of the
> features of any software package once they get past a limited period of
> learning. They will solve problems often with an awkward work around
> never realizing there is much easier way to accomplish the task
> available. In fact most users I have seen never modified their tool bars
> in the older MS Office suites. The problem is how make users aware that
> these features are available and if they need to use them regularly they
> can customize the UI to include them.
>
> --
> Jay Lozier
> [hidden email]
>
> --
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> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

>
> I proposed a while ago with no comments a structure that dealt with the
> foundation of the layout design. How can we speak of specifics, when we
> cannot reach a consesus on keeping the layout as is, or introducing a
> vertical toolbar, or customizable ribbon like layout (personally, we will
> NEVER reach consensus if there is no BRAND IDENTITY of what LibreOffice is
> and who its for...and lets not be cliche and say its for everyone because
> that can be interpreted so many different ways).
>
> We must come to a decision of what the GENERAL layout should be, then work
> on menu/icon placement, then work on functinality, and last but DEF NOT
> LEAST, visual appeal.

> We will have to put time tables up, because we can never progress unless we
> all are on the same page regarding the need to progress and if a great idea
> can't be fit in the timeline set, then we wait to introduce it in the next
> clycle release. We can forgo all these great ideas that we have just because
> we have to iron out every single aspect of it.
>
> The tenets are great, but again, if we don't have a structure and not use
> the current infrastructure properly, we will do nothing more but right great
> emails about great ideas that never see the light of day. Im sorry if I
> sound a little over the top, I really care, like all of you, about the
> advancement of the value libreoffice can have on so many people.
>
> So, I decided to do something a little different and create this site for an
> alternative infrastructure that is meant to be smaller in scale, but faster
> in pace in some respects. If you are interested in experimenting with a
> different kind of infrastructure, and flesh out some experimental
> designs...I especially invite you (anyone really).
>
> Here is the link.
> http://libreofficedesign.weebly.com<http://libreofficedesign.weebly.com/index.html>
>
> I look forward to seeing where this goes...

>
> *The Tenets:*
>
>    - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
>    viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
>    dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users expect
>    these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should be live
>    previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
>    individually to see what the differences are.
>    - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
>    common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
>    users' mastery of the software.
>    - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
>    Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
>    features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
>    - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have table
>    tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a document
>    selected.

>> *The Goals:*
>>
>>    - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*
>
> I don't know if it is reasonable to have these two topics linked together so
> tigthly.
>
> Ease of use is of course one of the most important goals.
>
> But it relates reciprocally to the complexity of the task.
>
> If we come to a point where these two goals (ease of use and powerful
> feature-richness) are so oppositional that we had to reduce the importance of
> one in favour of the other, which one would be supported?

>>   This is by
>>    far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
>>    LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>>    menu/toolbar hierarchy.  [...]
>
> I would not introduce details in this phase of the discussion, because they might
> lead to a narrowed view on the topic.
>
> Ease of use is far more than toolbars/menus: numbers of mouse clicks, mouse
> distances, tastature access/accessibility come to my mind - and there are even
> more like colors and contrast, positioning of objects and so on:
>
> Nearly every modification to the UI has an impact in this field.

>
>>    - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>>    want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>>    ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>
> This is tightly related to "ease of use", so I'd combine these two goals.
>
> What I'd like to add as goals:
>
> - * Interoperability on different platforms.*
> LibreOffice wants to be present in a similar way on all the major platforms.
> Even if user switch from one platform to another, they should be able to work
> the way they are used to. A major task will be definition of fixed (platform
> independent) and OS-adapted (platform specific) parts in the UI in order to
> find a common way that provides LibreOffice's branding and behavior at the
> same time as smooth integration in the platform (with UI elements, behavior
>  etc)

> - *Don't forget actual users for possible future ones.*
> Microsoft lost milions of users (to OOo/LibreOffice and others) because they
> didn't take into account, that people tend to keep the Ui they are used to.
> Even with a totally new approach we should be able to find the tasks in a
> similar way to the old one.
>
> - *Let people have fun.*
> Working with LibreOffice should provide positive feelings - have a look at the
> slogan we positioned on the website:
>
> "Make it just work, and look great, too!"

> 2011/6/19 Bernhard Dippold<[hidden email]>:
>>> *The Goals:*
>>>
>>>     - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*
>> I don't know if it is reasonable to have these two topics linked together so
>> tigthly.
>>
>> Ease of use is of course one of the most important goals.
>>
>> But it relates reciprocally to the complexity of the task.
>>
>> If we come to a point where these two goals (ease of use and powerful
>> feature-richness) are so oppositional that we had to reduce the importance of
>> one in favour of the other, which one would be supported?
> Features! We cannot lost already existing features just because a
> redesigned UI.

>>>     This is by
>>>     far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients use
>>>     LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>>>     menu/toolbar hierarchy.  [...]
>> I would not introduce details in this phase of the discussion, because they might
>> lead to a narrowed view on the topic.
>>
>> Ease of use is far more than toolbars/menus: numbers of mouse clicks, mouse
>> distances, tastature access/accessibility come to my mind - and there are even
>> more like colors and contrast, positioning of objects and so on:
>>
>> Nearly every modification to the UI has an impact in this field.
> Agree
>>>     - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  [...]
>>>     Instead of copying another office suite, let's
>>>     pave the way for others to build on.
>> While I fully support the second part of the statement, I don't want to have the
>> first one as part of our main goals.
>>
>> I want to see LibreOffice having the *best* UI, not the newest or trendiest one.
> +1000
>> There are parts in other UIs being very interesting and clever.  We can include
>> them (if legally possible) in our general concept, if they fit well.
>>
>> If LibreOffice will be a trendsetter or not depends on the fact if we find *better*
>> solutions than all the other designer out there (or if we manage to include them
>> more consistently in our product).
>>
>> So just following others is as wrong as setting trends in technology while other
>> existing ideas manage to fulfill the necessary task much better...
> Fully agree with that

>>>     - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>>>     want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>>>     ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>> This is tightly related to "ease of use", so I'd combine these two goals.
>>
>> What I'd like to add as goals:
>>
>> - * Interoperability on different platforms.*
>> LibreOffice wants to be present in a similar way on all the major platforms.
>> Even if user switch from one platform to another, they should be able to work
>> the way they are used to. A major task will be definition of fixed (platform
>> independent) and OS-adapted (platform specific) parts in the UI in order to
>> find a common way that provides LibreOffice's branding and behavior at the
>> same time as smooth integration in the platform (with UI elements, behavior
>>   etc)
> +1000
>>   *Don't forget actual users for possible future ones.*
>> Microsoft lost milions of users (to OOo/LibreOffice and others) because they
>> didn't take into account, that people tend to keep the Ui they are used to.
>> Even with a totally new approach we should be able to find the tasks in a
>> similar way to the old one.
>>
>> - *Let people have fun.*
>> Working with LibreOffice should provide positive feelings - have a look at the
>> slogan we positioned on the website:
>>
>> "Make it just work, and look great, too!"
> Great points!

> Hey all,
>
> One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
> proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction
> for the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4 ) which really made me realize
> the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
>  Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think LibreOffice
> ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
> release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
> achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
>
> *The Goals:*
>
>    - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is by
>    far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients
> use LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>    menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.  The
>    easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
>    right-click menu.
>    - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
>    retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four years
>    ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of displaying
>    program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens,
> but let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and
> LibreOffice is extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office
> suite, let's pave the way for others to build on.
>    - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>    want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>    ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>
> *The Tenets:*
>
>    - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
>    viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
>    dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users
> expect these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should
> be live previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
> individually to see what the differences are.
>    - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
>    common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
>    users' mastery of the software.
>    - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
>    Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
>    features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
>    - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have
> table tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a
> document selected.
>

> Let me know what you think of these and, in particular, how you would
> change/expand on these.  This is just a very very rough draft (and very
> well could be repeating itself or incomplete) of things that I see , but
> ultimately LibreOffice isn't any one man's software, but rather
> everyone's, so I invite everyone to put some thought into this and please
> reply to this so we can come up with a general UX direction for this
> incredible project!
>
> Scott
>
> P.S. Sorry for the re-post - I sent this just before the list changed
> addresses, so I'm re-posting it with the new one!

> Hello! I'm new at list. I was hoping to talk some considerations about
> LibreOffice UI, and found this full thread here. I'm glad to see this
> discussion going.
> I want to congratulate you all for your excellent work with the LibreOffice,
> and will take this first e-mail to attach some comments to this thread.
>
> Like LibreOffice user, I'm frustrated with some points. Nobody I know (and
> me too, some time ago) find where add some nonstandard color for the text,
> for example. We have only some CMYK colors, but to create a new presentation
> on Impress they aren't sufficient some time. This happens because the option
> is at wrong place! See, to add a new nonstandard color I need go to "Format
> -> Area -> Colors tab -> Add". Why the "custom colors" options could
> not be below
> the list of colors at toolbar (at popup with the color list after click at
> arrow)?
>
> Worse, the buttons "Add", "Modify", "Edit", "Remove" are so close that
> confuse even experienced users, while trying add new colors (what's the
> difference between "Edit" and "Modify"?)
>
> We have a lot of other (simple, but important) things, like try avoid tabs
> on two lines (or three): they change position, and old people or with little
> experience tend to get lost. And yes, we have better ways to do this. The
> styles toolbox can be simpler too, and much could be talked about add/edit
> styles.
>
> And there is much more interface problems (major or minor) in LibreOffice. It
> is not our fault, it's just the time for a review. LibreOffice is growing,
> and if this review is not done soon, things will be very difficult...
>
> My point is that part of this work can be done in the current interface, and
> should start. But some things are too big, and get them in the current
> interface is suicide, but needed, which implies that the redesign of the
> entire interface is an inevitable destination.
>
> Perhaps you already know, I don't know, but I'd like to share with you the
> work of this guy. I found accidentally at internet, and maybe bring some
> ideas to this discussion:
> http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273
>
> Thanks for your attention!
>
> Saulo
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
>

>> Hey all,
>> >  
>> >  One thing that I've noticed is that we have a lot of great redesign
>> >  proposals floating around, but we have yet to establish a true direction
>> >  for the Libre Office platform.  Someone recently posted this video (
>> >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl9kD693ie4  ) which really made me realize
>> >  the importance of having specific long-term goals for software design.
>> >    Therefore, I wanted to propose a few simple goals that I think LibreOffice
>> >  ought to have for its design as we move forward (maybe even for the 4.0
>> >  release)  as well as the basic tenets that I think we can use to help
>> >  achieve these goals.  So, here we go:
>> >  
>> >  *The Goals:*
>> >  
>> >      - *Make LibreOffice easy to use while retaining its power.*  This is by
>> >      far one of the biggest complaints I have when I suggest that my clients
>> >  use LibreOffice - they don't understand where things are in the
>> >      menu/toolbar hierarchy.  The best example of this is page margins.  The
>> >      easiest way for a lot of my customers to find this is through the
>> >      right-click menu.
>> >      - *Lead current trends in technology, don't just follow.*  LibreOffice
>> >      retains a layout that was first commercially phased out about four years
>> >      ago.  While the Menu/Toolbar paradigm is an excellent way of displaying
>> >      program features for less fully-featured software and smaller screens,
>> >  but let's face it - most desktop screens are no longer small and
>> >  LibreOffice is extremely full-featured.  Instead of copying another office
>> >  suite, let's pave the way for others to build on.
>> >      - *Help people to be more efficient.*  This is really important if we
>> >      want to get LibreOffice used in more businesses and schools, and is
>> >      ultimately the best way to get any piece of software adopted.
>> >  
>> >  *The Tenets:*
>> >  
>> >      - *Allow users to focus on the content, not the UI.*  The document
>> >      viewport should never change size or lose/gain visibility due to pop-up
>> >      dialogs or toolbars.  The only exception to this is menus, as users
>> >  expect these to overlap their document.  One major subset of this should
>> >  be live previews.  For instance, you have to click through Headings 1-10
>> >  individually to see what the differences are.
>> >      - *Everything should be accessible within 3 clicks, not just the 'most
>> >      common' features.*  This will help reduce the clutter while increasing
>> >      users' mastery of the software.
>> >      - *Consistent UI areas (not features) across all individual 'apps'.*
>> >      Keep the UI as consistent as possible without sacrificing the
>> >      features/functionality of any individual app (Calc, Writer, etc.).
>> >      - *Value context over comprehensiveness.*  Users don't need to have
>> >  table tools up and at the ready when they only have text in the body of a
>> >  document selected.
>> >  
> I couldn't agree more with the propsal that we should be guided by principles.
> What I have found a little frustrating, by way of comparison to the
> developement of commercial software is the disconnect between genuine user
> requirements and development. What I think is consistently missing here is the
> next layer down from your excellent 'tennets'; user validated  requirements
> (not personal opinion or anecdotal observations). A corpus of well structured
> use cases, including those for the product architecture, will help us set a
> strategic direction. We should research requirements before too many folk
> pitch in with alternative designs and prototypes that may or may
> not be any kind of solution to users' real needs. It is precisely this which
> will make or break Libre Office and will set it apart from other office
> software.
>
> If we know what users want then we can stage implementation in deliverable
> chunks over several releases. There's no need to implement the whole deal in
> one hit.
>
> One final thought. If the current implementation or architecture is part of an
> impediment to realising a long term roadmap to a redesign, then that too
> should  appear as one of the tennets.