Enable CTL for Default?

Is there a compelling reason why we don't enable CTL by default? We
have a user who wants it enabled, I can push a patch out if there is
no reason not to enable by default but I don't want to do that until I
get some feedback. This is in reference to: FDO 47969


Joel
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Hi Joel, *.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:28 AM, Joel Madero <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there a compelling reason why we don't enable CTL by default?

The lots and lots of additional UI options/dialog tabs confuse regular
users that have no idea of CTL.

However enabling it when the UI language / the set of installed UI
languages includes RTL/CTL languages should be fine. But there is no
mechanism yet to enable/disable Options based on what langauges are
installed, so the question is whether it is worth to add program logic
to do so.

I don't agree with the "performance" statement there is no performance
impact AFAIK. All RTL functionality is there even without the option
activated. You can open and edit RTL/CTL documents even without that
option turned on.
Only the UI controls to set the advanced formatting options are hidden.

ciao
Christian
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 01:28:15PM +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
Many CTL users don't install a localised interface, so there is no
correlation.

IMO CTL/Asian options is a remnants of distant past and should be
killed for good (not to mention that "Asian" is a so ignorant
orientalistic term in this context).

Regards,
 Khaled
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

> IMO CTL/Asian options is a remnants of distant past and should be
> killed for good (not to mention that "Asian" is a so ignorant
> orientalistic term in this context).

I agree. It enforces the idea that "Western" (whatever *that* then
means...) languages and/or scripts would be the "normal" ones, and
others more or less "exotic". Goes directly against the stated
principles of TDF I think.

(I really wish, seriously, that Unicode wouldn't have put USASCII in
the first 128 slots, but assigned codepoints totally randomly.)

--tml
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Hi Christian,

On Monday, 2012-06-18 13:28:15 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

> I don't agree with the "performance" statement there is no performance
> impact AFAIK. All RTL functionality is there even without the option
> activated. You can open and edit RTL/CTL documents even without that
> option turned on.
> Only the UI controls to set the advanced formatting options are hidden.

Not only. There's also visible cursor travelling, input sequence
checking and detection of writing mode that are only active for CTL.

  Eike

--
LibreOffice Calc developer. Number formatter stricken i18n transpositionizer.
GnuPG key 0x293C05FD : 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3  9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Hi Khaled,

On Monday, 2012-06-18 13:39:03 +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote:

> IMO CTL/Asian options is a remnants of distant past

Yes, it is ...

> and should be
> killed for good (not to mention that "Asian" is a so ignorant
> orientalistic term in this context).

... but it is something that MS bestowed us and even persists in file
formats.

  Eike

--
LibreOffice Calc developer. Number formatter stricken i18n transpositionizer.
GnuPG key 0x293C05FD : 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3  9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD

_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

I guess with all of this said my question still is, should I mark the
bug report as WONTFIX and just have a comment why? It seems like
enabling by default isn't the way to go and the time/energy it would
take to add a language check might just be too much for a bug that
affects such a limited number of users....especially when there is an
easy workaround (enable CTL in the options). I have never used it before
so I can't even say I knew anything that it was used for until this
thread, shows my ignorance.

Let me know and I'll pass on the message to the user (or someone else
can throw a comment in the bug if you'd like).

Thanks,
Joel


On 06/18/2012 07:02 AM, Eike Rathke wrote:
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Hi UX-Advise, *,


On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Joel Madero <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I guess with all of this said my question still is, should I mark the bug

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47969

> report as WONTFIX and just have a comment why? [...]
> Let me know and I'll pass on the message to the user (or someone else can
> throw a comment in the bug if you'd like).

We'll let ux-advise have a decision, that's one of the reason for
having that instance :-)

So summary of http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2012-June/033552.html
( http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice@.../msg32164.html
). A short thread, no worries, but for your convenience:

########

Should Asian and CTL language support be enabled by default (& maybe
the option removed completely)?

Cons:
* More UI controls/dialog tabpages that might confuse users
* visible cursor travelling, input sequence checking and detection of
writing mode that are only active for CTL might have a tiny
performance impact

Pros:
* One less entry in Tools|Options (in case it is removed completely)
* not treating CTL/Asian scripts as second class (<quote>not to
mention that "Asian" is a so ignorant
orientalistic term in this context</quote>)
* will work out-of the box for all users

Why can't it be set depending on the LO-language used?
* Many CTL users don't use localized interface, so there's no correlation
* there is no per-langauge-options mechanism yet, so it has to be
introduced/workarounded by bundled extensions or similar and thus
complicate the code/installation

########
So please discuss & decide :-) - Thanks a lot.

ciao
Christian
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Given those pros I'm for stripping it out and enabling it by default.
I think slightly more complicated (potentially) is outweighed by works
out of box alone, let alone adding the second class status of Asian
scripts and taking out one entry out of the already abundant options.


Joel

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Christian Lohmaier
<[hidden email]> wrote: _______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Christian Lohmaier
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi UX-Advise, *,
>
>
> Cons:
[..]
> * visible cursor travelling, input sequence checking and detection of
> writing mode that are only active for CTL might have a tiny
> performance impact

Either it _has_ a tiny performance impact
or it _might_ have a performance impact
But qualifying a performance impact, that has not been measured, as
'tiny' up-front, is 'begging the question'.
(note: it is quite possible that the impact, if any, is
tiny/negligible... I'm just objecting to the biased wording of the
statement of 'fact')

>
> Pros:
> * One less entry in Tools|Options (in case it is removed completely)
> * not treating CTL/Asian scripts as second class (<quote>not to
> mention that "Asian" is a so ignorant
> orientalistic term in this context</quote>)
http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/Orientalistic
I'm quite confused as to what was meant by this quote.

> * will work out-of the box for all users
No regression for any document that does not rely on these features today ?
(note: This is not a rhetorical question. I honestly do not know if
these options only impact the UI or if they also can impact the way a
document is rendered)

Norbert

Note: I have no strong feeling either way.
But I'd prefer if the discussion center on practical and technical
aspect rather than politically correct ones.
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Hi Norbert,  *,

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, I have a fairly slow machine, and I have enable Asian language
support enabled and don't notice any difference compared to not having
it enabled. But I don't work with huge documents.
Also I frequently did enable CTL support when I was doing more QA work
(processing issues) and didn't note any performance drawbacks either,
but then again I only used it to check/verify bugs, not to actually
create documents that are RTL or whatnot.

I only use the textgrid and vertical writing myself.

> (note: it is quite possible that the impact, if any, is
> tiny/negligible... I'm just objecting to the biased wording of the
> statement of 'fact')

Well, free free to provide some numbers, or even a way to measure it.
If stuff is done in addition, that needs more CPU. That is my
rationale. I myself didn't notice any penalty that would make me not
activate the option because of performance issues, but I'm no heavy
user myself.

>> * will work out-of the box for all users
> No regression for any document that does not rely on these features today ?
> (note: This is not a rhetorical question. I honestly do not know if
> these options only impact the UI or if they also can impact the way a
> document is rendered)

Well - I always was under the assumption that the option would only
affect the UI, but Eike corrected me on that point and mentioned the
additional input sequence checking and writing mode detection & cursor
traveling stuff that is only used with the option enabled.

If there is a change in rendering of the document based on whether the
option is enabled or not, then it is a bug.

ciao
Christian
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Christian Lohmaier
<[hidden email]> wrote:
Fair enough.

I agree it would be... I'm concerned that they would all become very
visible at once...

Norbert
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

If we can run a test to look at performance and verify that it's
minimal or no inpact maybe we can turn CTL on by default but leave the
option to turn it off. Let our team play around with it for awhile
before submitting it to the master branch. This way if it does cause a
major headache at least:

a) most users won't see it
b) we can report/diagnose "in house"
c) We know that it's easily fixable by just disabling CTL


Just a thought.


Joel

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Norbert Thiebaud <[hidden email]> wrote: _______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 12:52:24PM -0500, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Christian Lohmaier
> > * not treating CTL/Asian scripts as second class (<quote>not to
> > mention that "Asian" is a so ignorant
> > orientalistic term in this context</quote>)
> http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/Orientalistic
> I'm quite confused as to what was meant by this quote.

The option named "Asian" is really about vertical text layout and other
features of CJK writing systems.

Asia is such a large piece of the land that virtually all writing
systems in use today are used in large parts of it, which shows how
ignorant an option name it is, treating "Asians" as some mysterious
group of people doing exotic things AKA Orientalism (in the bad meaning
of it).

So if this option is to stay, it should be given a name that reflects
what it actually does (and even if it goes, there are many instances of
"Asian" in the UI that should be given sensible names).

Regards,
 Khaled
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Let's first decide about how we handle the default, then we can get into the mess of PC naming. If we mix the two this might get even more complicated. Thanks for the input, it's gone in my list :)
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Hi all,

I enabled CTL/Asian support some time ago and it doesn't bother me
performance-wise. However, the separate font entries in the Paragraph
Style dialogue do bother me quite a bit. I also don't really see the
use for them because (at least in the case of the CTL default) they
lump very different scripts together – most fonts aren't optimised for
both (e. g.) Arabic and Indic scripts.
Thus, if we think this principle through, we would end up with
different pickers for every language – which hopefully no one wants. I
would very much like to only ever see one default font, not three.

(It also adds two more tabs, Asian Typography and Asian Layout to the
same dialogue. It should be simple to add the three options in Asian
Typography as a button on the Font tab. Asian Layout would seem to
topically fit into the Position tab – which is already crammed though,
so that Tab would likely need to stay.)

Then, the Asian option adds the entries Hangul/Hanja Conversion and
Chinese Translation to the Tools→Language menu. These, don't bother me
really.

The other UI thing is that it adds three more pages to the options itself.
The Searching in Japanese page initially comes up with all options
enabled – thus, it might make sense to think about whether people
really need such granular control over these options or if we could
maybe make it all a single option (I am not Japanese, obviously, so I
am guessing wildly here). [NB: all the options are also available in
Find & Replace next to the tick box "Sounds like".]

Keeping most of the options for Asian Layout seems like a good idea to
me, but the Beginning and End Character settings, we can probably also
conclude the right thing to do from the default language setting, no?
As for the options under Conmplex Text Layout:
* Sequence Checking sounds like an option that's useful to keep;
* I am not sure about Cursor Movement, but I've tried the options and
"visual" seems to behave rather buggy – if it weren't it would likely
be the best option
* the "Digits" option: it could find a new home in the Languages tab
or it could be removed completely, with it being set to "Context"
always

This way, we could probably compress all the relevant options to a
single additional options page (instead of three) – which would lower
the UI impact immediately.

Conclusion: if we could adapt the UI as outlined, it would be great if
we could always enable CJK/CTL support.

Regards,

Astron.
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:21:57AM +0200, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:
> * I am not sure about Cursor Movement, but I've tried the options and
> "visual" seems to behave rather buggy – if it weren't it would likely
> be the best option

I always set it to visual, logical seems very unprediuctable to me (i.e.
I can't usually tell if the right arrow will move the cursor left or
right at ant given position).

> * the "Digits" option: it could find a new home in the Languages tab
> or it could be removed completely, with it being set to "Context"
> always

This have to be kept, in Arabic countries to the west of Egypt the
European (AKA Arabic) digits are always used.

Regards,
 Khaled
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice

Just to add to the ongoing disappointment with CTL, came across FDO 42123 which is another user stating that CTL is outdated, confusing, etc....
_______________________________________________
LibreOffice mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice