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Hide ruler by default?

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Glenn de Groot Glenn de Groot
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Hide ruler by default?


Hello people,
yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the ruler hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the ruler (on any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft Office, Google Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try it, go to View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot simpler.People who do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
Thoughts?
-Glenn de Groot
     
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Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

I am using ruler in Writer and also in Imress and Draw. But let's hear
the UI gurus ;o)

KAMI

2011-10-13 09:41 keltezéssel, Glenn de Groot írta:
> Hello people,
> yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the ruler hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the ruler (on any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft Office, Google Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try it, go to View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot simpler.People who do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> Thoughts?
> -Glenn de Groot
>      



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RGB.ES RGB.ES
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

In reply to this post by Glenn de Groot
2011/10/13 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>

>
> Hello people,
> yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the ruler
> hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the ruler (on
> any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft Office, Google
> Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try it, go to
> View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot simpler.People who
> do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> Thoughts?
> -Glenn de Groot
>
>
Rulers are useful for direct formatting, I think. Because I never use direct
formatting I always turn off rulers... ;)
There was a discussion (or more precisely, "an attempt to start a
discussion") about default values on LibO a couple of months ago. Maybe we
need to restart it.
Cheers
Ricardo

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

I never use the rulers, see no need for them in a word processor, or in
a presentation. I can not speak for Mirek now but on his blog he talks about
the "Citrus UI" hiding them by default.  but I can say that in his UI mock
ups there are no rulers. here is a link to his blog where he talks about it
http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:41 AM, RGB ES <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2011/10/13 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>
>
> >
> > Hello people,
> > yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the ruler
> > hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the ruler
> (on
> > any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft Office,
> Google
> > Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try it, go
> to
> > View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot simpler.People
> who
> > do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> > Thoughts?
> > -Glenn de Groot
> >
> >
> Rulers are useful for direct formatting, I think. Because I never use
> direct
> formatting I always turn off rulers... ;)
> There was a discussion (or more precisely, "an attempt to start a
> discussion") about default values on LibO a couple of months ago. Maybe we
> need to restart it.
> Cheers
> Ricardo
>
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>
>

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Kévin PEIGNOT-3 Kévin PEIGNOT-3
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

Hy

Personnaly, I always used Rulers (On word 2003, OOo, SYmphony or LibO), to
place horizontally text or headers/footers. But I think it's not the case of
the majority .

Then, if rulers have to be kept, I think we should try to find a way to have
them more discrete, because they are not very sexy, they take a big place
and are not used a lot. It should really be investigated what do you think ?

Kévin

PS : Scuse, I've speak a horrible English, I know it.

2011/10/13 Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]>

> I never use the rulers, see no need for them in a word processor, or in
> a presentation. I can not speak for Mirek now but on his blog he talks
> about
> the "Citrus UI" hiding them by default.  but I can say that in his UI mock
> ups there are no rulers. here is a link to his blog where he talks about it
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:41 AM, RGB ES <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 2011/10/13 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>
> >
> > >
> > > Hello people,
> > > yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the ruler
> > > hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the ruler
> > (on
> > > any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft Office,
> > Google
> > > Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try it,
> go
> > to
> > > View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot simpler.People
> > who
> > > do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> > > Thoughts?
> > > -Glenn de Groot
> > >
> > >
> > Rulers are useful for direct formatting, I think. Because I never use
> > direct
> > formatting I always turn off rulers... ;)
> > There was a discussion (or more precisely, "an attempt to start a
> > discussion") about default values on LibO a couple of months ago. Maybe
> we
> > need to restart it.
> > Cheers
> > Ricardo
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> > Problems?
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> > deleted
> >
> >
>
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> deleted
>
>

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Jay Lozier Jay Lozier
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

Hi all,

On Thu, 2011-10-13 at 22:23 +0200, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote:

> Hy
>
> Personnaly, I always used Rulers (On word 2003, OOo, SYmphony or LibO), to
> place horizontally text or headers/footers. But I think it's not the case of
> the majority .

I sometimes use the top ruler to set tab type, tab positioning, and
indent positioning in Writer. I do not think the default on/off is that
critical if switching the behavior is easy. Now, I can click Rulers
under View to turn on/off.

We could be hinting a broader issue, should some of the default
behaviors be confirmed/set at install or first use? If so, which ones
should be included? Could there be recommend selections based on the
type of hardware environment - desktop with big screen, desktop with
small screen, laptop, etc.?


> Then, if rulers have to be kept, I think we should try to find a way to have
> them more discrete, because they are not very sexy, they take a big place
> and are not used a lot. It should really be investigated what do you think ?

Probably not used often, but the amount of space they consume is
relative to the screen size. On some laptops vertical real estate is
lacking but on a desktop with a large monitor it may be an ascetic issue
more than anything else. I could understand if someone wanted different
defaults on different computers.

>
> Kévin
>
> PS : Scuse, I've speak a horrible English, I know it.
>
> 2011/10/13 Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]>
>
> > I never use the rulers, see no need for them in a word processor, or in
> > a presentation. I can not speak for Mirek now but on his blog he talks
> > about
> > the "Citrus UI" hiding them by default.  but I can say that in his UI mock
> > ups there are no rulers. here is a link to his blog where he talks about it
> > http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:41 AM, RGB ES <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > 2011/10/13 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello people,
> > > > yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the ruler
> > > > hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the ruler
> > > (on
> > > > any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft Office,
> > > Google
> > > > Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try it,
> > go
> > > to
> > > > View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot simpler.People
> > > who
> > > > do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > > -Glenn de Groot
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Rulers are useful for direct formatting, I think. Because I never use
> > > direct
> > > formatting I always turn off rulers... ;)
> > > There was a discussion (or more precisely, "an attempt to start a
> > > discussion") about default values on LibO a couple of months ago. Maybe
> > we
> > > need to restart it.
> > > Cheers
> > > Ricardo
> > >
> > > --
> > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> > > Problems?
> > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > > deleted
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
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> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> > deleted
> >
> >
>



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Evan Janusziewicz Evan Janusziewicz
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RE: Hide ruler by default?

In reply to this post by Kévin PEIGNOT-3
Hi,

I too think the LibO should hide rulers by default. Just add some obvious
button to show the ruler or do some sort of auto-hide animation.

Evan
-----Original Message-----
From: Kévin PEIGNOT [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 4:24 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Hide ruler by default?

Hy

Personnaly, I always used Rulers (On word 2003, OOo, SYmphony or LibO), to
place horizontally text or headers/footers. But I think it's not the case of
the majority .

Then, if rulers have to be kept, I think we should try to find a way to have
them more discrete, because they are not very sexy, they take a big place
and are not used a lot. It should really be investigated what do you think ?

Kévin

PS : Scuse, I've speak a horrible English, I know it.

2011/10/13 Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]>

> I never use the rulers, see no need for them in a word processor, or
> in a presentation. I can not speak for Mirek now but on his blog he
> talks about the "Citrus UI" hiding them by default.  but I can say
> that in his UI mock ups there are no rulers. here is a link to his
> blog where he talks about it
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:41 AM, RGB ES <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > 2011/10/13 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>
> >
> > >
> > > Hello people,
> > > yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the
> > > ruler hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses
> > > the ruler
> > (on
> > > any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft
> > > Office,
> > Google
> > > Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try
> > > it,
> go
> > to
> > > View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot
> > > simpler.People
> > who
> > > do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> > > Thoughts?
> > > -Glenn de Groot
> > >
> > >
> > Rulers are useful for direct formatting, I think. Because I never
> > use direct formatting I always turn off rulers... ;) There was a
> > discussion (or more precisely, "an attempt to start a
> > discussion") about default values on LibO a couple of months ago.
> > Maybe
> we
> > need to restart it.
> > Cheers
> > Ricardo
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
> > [hidden email]
> > Problems?
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe
> > / Posting guidelines + more:
> > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot
> > be deleted
> >
> >
>
> --
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> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

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deleted



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Glenn de Groot Glenn de Groot
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RE: Hide ruler by default?

In reply to this post by Jay Lozier

I am using an Asus 10 inch netbook, and disabling the rulers saves a lot of space.I can see more of my document without rulers, but disabling looks better too, which is the reason I turn off rulers on the desktop too.
-Glenn

> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Hide ruler by default?
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:43:32 -0400
>
> Hi all,
>
> On Thu, 2011-10-13 at 22:23 +0200, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote:
>
> > Hy
> >
> > Personnaly, I always used Rulers (On word 2003, OOo, SYmphony or LibO), to
> > place horizontally text or headers/footers. But I think it's not the case of
> > the majority .
>
> I sometimes use the top ruler to set tab type, tab positioning, and
> indent positioning in Writer. I do not think the default on/off is that
> critical if switching the behavior is easy. Now, I can click Rulers
> under View to turn on/off.
>
> We could be hinting a broader issue, should some of the default
> behaviors be confirmed/set at install or first use? If so, which ones
> should be included? Could there be recommend selections based on the
> type of hardware environment - desktop with big screen, desktop with
> small screen, laptop, etc.?
>
>
> > Then, if rulers have to be kept, I think we should try to find a way to have
> > them more discrete, because they are not very sexy, they take a big place
> > and are not used a lot. It should really be investigated what do you think ?
>
> Probably not used often, but the amount of space they consume is
> relative to the screen size. On some laptops vertical real estate is
> lacking but on a desktop with a large monitor it may be an ascetic issue
> more than anything else. I could understand if someone wanted different
> defaults on different computers.
>
> >
> > Kévin
> >
> > PS : Scuse, I've speak a horrible English, I know it.
> >
> > 2011/10/13 Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > I never use the rulers, see no need for them in a word processor, or in
> > > a presentation. I can not speak for Mirek now but on his blog he talks
> > > about
> > > the "Citrus UI" hiding them by default.  but I can say that in his UI mock
> > > ups there are no rulers. here is a link to his blog where he talks about it
> > > http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:41 AM, RGB ES <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 2011/10/13 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello people,
> > > > > yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the ruler
> > > > > hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the ruler
> > > > (on
> > > > > any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft Office,
> > > > Google
> > > > > Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by default.Try it,
> > > go
> > > > to
> > > > > View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot simpler.People
> > > > who
> > > > > do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > -Glenn de Groot
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Rulers are useful for direct formatting, I think. Because I never use
> > > > direct
> > > > formatting I always turn off rulers... ;)
> > > > There was a discussion (or more precisely, "an attempt to start a
> > > > discussion") about default values on LibO a couple of months ago. Maybe
> > > we
> > > > need to restart it.
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Ricardo
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
> > > > Problems?
> > > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> > > > deleted
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
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> > > Problems?
> > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> > > deleted
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
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> [hidden email]
>
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Kévin PEIGNOT-3 Kévin PEIGNOT-3
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

Does a UI expert says what he thinks ? Because actually, it seems it should
be disabled (majority seems to think this)

Kévin

2011/10/14 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>

>
> I am using an Asus 10 inch netbook, and disabling the rulers saves a lot of
> space.I can see more of my document without rulers, but disabling looks
> better too, which is the reason I turn off rulers on the desktop too.
> -Glenn
>
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Hide ruler by default?
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:43:32 -0400
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > On Thu, 2011-10-13 at 22:23 +0200, Kévin PEIGNOT wrote:
> >
> > > Hy
> > >
> > > Personnaly, I always used Rulers (On word 2003, OOo, SYmphony or LibO),
> to
> > > place horizontally text or headers/footers. But I think it's not the
> case of
> > > the majority .
> >
> > I sometimes use the top ruler to set tab type, tab positioning, and
> > indent positioning in Writer. I do not think the default on/off is that
> > critical if switching the behavior is easy. Now, I can click Rulers
> > under View to turn on/off.
> >
> > We could be hinting a broader issue, should some of the default
> > behaviors be confirmed/set at install or first use? If so, which ones
> > should be included? Could there be recommend selections based on the
> > type of hardware environment - desktop with big screen, desktop with
> > small screen, laptop, etc.?
> >
> >
> > > Then, if rulers have to be kept, I think we should try to find a way to
> have
> > > them more discrete, because they are not very sexy, they take a big
> place
> > > and are not used a lot. It should really be investigated what do you
> think ?
> >
> > Probably not used often, but the amount of space they consume is
> > relative to the screen size. On some laptops vertical real estate is
> > lacking but on a desktop with a large monitor it may be an ascetic issue
> > more than anything else. I could understand if someone wanted different
> > defaults on different computers.
> >
> > >
> > > Kévin
> > >
> > > PS : Scuse, I've speak a horrible English, I know it.
> > >
> > > 2011/10/13 Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]>
> > >
> > > > I never use the rulers, see no need for them in a word processor, or
> in
> > > > a presentation. I can not speak for Mirek now but on his blog he
> talks
> > > > about
> > > > the "Citrus UI" hiding them by default.  but I can say that in his UI
> mock
> > > > ups there are no rulers. here is a link to his blog where he talks
> about it
> > > > http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 6:41 AM, RGB ES <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 2011/10/13 Glenn de Groot <[hidden email]>
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello people,
> > > > > > yesterday I had a pretty good idea IMHO.I would like to see the
> ruler
> > > > > > hidden by default in Libre Office 3.5.I know nobody who uses the
> ruler
> > > > > (on
> > > > > > any office application), and I don´t use it either.Microsoft
> Office,
> > > > > Google
> > > > > > Docs and I believe there are others, hide the ruler by
> default.Try it,
> > > > go
> > > > > to
> > > > > > View and deselect the ruler, it makes Libre Office a lot
> simpler.People
> > > > > who
> > > > > > do need the ruler probably know where to find it.
> > > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > > -Glenn de Groot
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Rulers are useful for direct formatting, I think. Because I never
> use
> > > > > direct
> > > > > formatting I always turn off rulers... ;)
> > > > > There was a discussion (or more precisely, "an attempt to start a
> > > > > discussion") about default values on LibO a couple of months ago.
> Maybe
> > > > we
> > > > > need to restart it.
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Ricardo
> > > > >
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Rafael Rocha Daud Rafael Rocha Daud
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

In reply to this post by Glenn de Groot
Majority says disable by default. For usability as well as aesthetics,
I'd say:
a) most people use tabs for indentation, and do it on their default values;
b) on most machines, it looks prettier without rulers. I use a very good
GTK2 theme, so the rulers are really fancy, but it's not the rule (pun
intended);
c) screen real estate, as already stated (pun intended) by many;
d) using the ruler is a rather advanced formatting tool, if compared to
the current ease of turning it on/off;
e) we could always take it back, if we manage to improve it's size,
looking etc., or if we favor direct formatting or at least auto-updating
of styles.

For all the above reasons (and no reason against it so far), I believe
we should disable it by default. There will always be time to review
this in the future when analysing other defaults (which I agree we
should do, Kévin, just not now IMHO).

PS.: just for being the devil's advocate, disabling it by default could
lead some to think it's not offered in the suite. However, I don't
believe someone who would actually miss it would, at the same time,
think it's gone for good or not be able to find it in a few seconds.

Em 14-10-2011 23:00, Kévin PEIGNOT <[hidden email]> escreveu:
> Does a UI expert says what he thinks ? Because actually, it seems it should
> be disabled (majority seems to think this)
>
> Kévin

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Jay Lozier Jay Lozier
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Re: Hide ruler by default?

On Sat, 2011-10-15 at 00:49 -0300, Rafael Rocha Daud wrote:

> Majority says disable by default. For usability as well as aesthetics,
> I'd say:
> a) most people use tabs for indentation, and do it on their default values;
> b) on most machines, it looks prettier without rulers. I use a very good
> GTK2 theme, so the rulers are really fancy, but it's not the rule (pun
> intended);
> c) screen real estate, as already stated (pun intended) by many;

on some smallish screen devices +++1

> d) using the ruler is a rather advanced formatting tool, if compared to
> the current ease of turning it on/off;

+1, and if default is will be off using the current on/off control is
very easy.

> e) we could always take it back, if we manage to improve it's size,
> looking etc., or if we favor direct formatting or at least auto-updating
> of styles.
>
> For all the above reasons (and no reason against it so far), I believe
> we should disable it by default. There will always be time to review
> this in the future when analysing other defaults (which I agree we
> should do, Kévin, just not now IMHO).
>
> PS.: just for being the devil's advocate, disabling it by default could
> lead some to think it's not offered in the suite. However, I don't
> believe someone who would actually miss it would, at the same time,
> think it's gone for good or not be able to find it in a few seconds.

You probably will get a few who must be told how to turn on the ruler.
However, I agree most who actually use the ruler should find easily if
the on/off is located where it currently is. I think you summed the
problem of the ruler, it takes up space and is often not used by anyone.
Reviewing how often I change the defaults ruler settings, I must admit
it is not very often, in fact fairly rare and only on specific documents
that I could use a template for the initial settings.

Note a sophisticated user should have that ability to change the default
template and could change the default tab settings, etc. in the new
default template.

IMHO, as along as formatting tools that are easy to access (on/off) I do
not see that default behavior initial state is very critical (on/off)
for users. The default state should be determined by what makes sense
for most users in most situations. Normally, I like most as default off.
I think no one serious questioned why the ruler was default on, it had
been default on in programs since the 80's. The original reasons, which
I do not know/remember, probably were very sensible and practical for
then. Kevin good job asking the question.

>
> Em 14-10-2011 23:00, Kévin PEIGNOT <[hidden email]> escreveu:
> > Does a UI expert says what he thinks ? Because actually, it seems it should
> > be disabled (majority seems to think this)
> >
> > Kévin
>



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