[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] New: Default set of table styles

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] New: Default set of table styles

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

            Bug ID: 101349
           Summary: Default set of table styles
           Product: LibreOffice
           Version: 5.3.0.0.alpha0+ Master
          Hardware: All
                OS: All
            Status: UNCONFIRMED
          Severity: enhancement
          Priority: medium
         Component: Writer
          Assignee: [hidden email]
          Reporter: [hidden email]
                CC: [hidden email],
                    [hidden email],
                    [hidden email], [hidden email], [hidden email]

Created attachment 126625
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126625&action=edit
ms word 2010 table styles

Jakub (udap) has enabled table styles in the styles and formatting sidebar, but
presently it only has table styles from Table > Autoformat Styles, which arent
very pleasing, so we need to come up with a new set of defaults to supplement
the 17 that we already have.

I've attached a document with all the 45 table styles available in MS Word 2010
for people to look through and comment on the ones they like. For those
interested in designing their own table styles, please create them with a
minimum of 5x5 table size and submit them as attachments here. Would be useful
to show examples of usage in these designed table styles.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Keywords|                            |needsUXEval
             Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |NEW
     Ever confirmed|0                           |1

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
Ideally we attach XML files, but so far the styles are stored binary.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Cor Nouws <[hidden email]> changed:

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                 CC|                            |[hidden email]

--- Comment #2 from Cor Nouws <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 126628
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126628&action=edit
current LibreOffice AutoformatStyles

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #3 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 126849
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126849&action=edit
ms word 2010 ribbon UI table styles

So to clarify, attachment 126625 contains only the base variants (mainly
grayscale) of the default themed ribbon UI table styles. The attached
screenshot includes all the default themed ribbon UI styles.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #4 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 126850
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126850&action=edit
WPS table styles

Here are the default table styles in WPS/Kingsoft office.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #5 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 126858
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126858&action=edit
1st collection of table styles

So here is a first attempt at a collection of grayscale table styles, so please
give your input on it, primarily the ones you like the most. Colored versions
of the chosen grayscale styles will then need to be created, hopefully by those
who have a good palette sense, as i don't. :D

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #6 from Cor Nouws <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #5)

> please give your input on it, primarily the ones you like the most.

Well, for what it's worth, my preference: Simple list 4, 8, 9, 7

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #7 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 126985
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126985&action=edit
Various table styles

Adding another draft.

In general, we should have a very simple style that fits 80%. Furthermore we
need a full-features style to illustrate what is possible. And something for
financial tables. Finally _a few_ design ideas would be good (the 100+ options
in Word makes no sense since users can easily change all attributes
themselves).

I suggest to also ask the community like we do regarding templates, for
instance.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #8 from Jean-Francois Nifenecker <[hidden email]> ---
I fully agree with Heiko. Hundreds of examples are of no use. A few efficient
templates showing what can be done using LibreOffice are a better way, IMO.

A call to the community to provide some examples/templates is the way to go as
well.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #9 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> In general, we should have a very simple style that fits 80%. Furthermore we
> need a full-features style to illustrate what is possible. And something for
> financial tables.

Definitely.

> Finally _a few_ design ideas would be good (the 100+
> options in Word makes no sense since users can easily change all attributes
> themselves).

MSO has 43 autoformat table styles, where only 1 of them are shown by default,
and 14 new table styles and 6 document theme-colored variants of those new
table styles (total is 99 :D). It makes perfect sense to provide colored
variants of table styles as

1) most users arent creative enough to colorize table styles (i include myself
in that category)
2) modifying table styles isnt an easy task that novice users (benjamin) would
be able to do or advanced users (eve) would want to do
3) the point of presets is to simplify the amount of changes the user has to
make

We definitely dont need 7 variants of each table style design, but having 3 or
4 of each would be beneficial (1 black/white and 2 or 3 colorized).

> I suggest to also ask the community like we do regarding templates, for
> instance.

Yes asking the creative minds in the community to assist with styles and
colorization would be useful.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Regina Henschel <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |[hidden email]

--- Comment #10 from Regina Henschel <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 126995
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126995&action=edit
A pure gray table with banded rows

I have created it with a Version: 5.3.0.0.alpha0+
Build ID: 44216ddbc620a1c05e98dda1f63ed6df0eae5275
CPU Threads: 4; OS Version: Windows 6.1; UI Render: default;
Locale: de-DE (de_DE); Calc: group

The example shows some features like banded rows and separate styles for the
corner cells.

To apply the table template to your own table, open the attached document and
then find the table template in the Table section of the Style&Formatting pane
in the sidebar.

I think it is misleading to name it "table style", because it is not a style
for a table, but a "table template" is <quote>a set of references to table cell
styles</quote>.

I think, that the current implementation produces invalid ODF, so it is too
early to make final templates. Unfortunately there was no interest on dev to
discuss that.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #11 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #10)
> The example shows some features like banded rows and separate styles for the
> corner cells.

Looks quite nice but unfortunately because the style wasnt created on a 4x4
table, some of the features werent imported into the auto generated table
style.

> I think it is misleading to name it "table style", because it is not a style
> for a table, but a "table template" is <quote>a set of references to table
> cell styles</quote>.

Dont think it is misleading to call it table styles, as that is what ODF calls
it and what other office suites call it.

> I think, that the current implementation produces invalid ODF, so it is too
> early to make final templates. Unfortunately there was no interest on dev to
> discuss that.

We can create the design our intended set of table styles/templates and we can
await for the code implementation to catch up to properly produce it. If you
find issues with it producing invalid ODF, please report bugs for it so jakub
can look into it.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #12 from Regina Henschel <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #11)

> Looks quite nice but unfortunately because the style wasnt created on a 4x4
> table, some of the features werent imported into the auto generated table
> style.

? What "feature" are you missing? If you mark the whole table and use Table >
AutoFormat Styles and then button Add, you get all the cell styles. The size
4x4 is only a minimum, you can use larger prototypes as well.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #13 from Regina Henschel <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #11)

> Dont think it is misleading to call it table styles, as that is what ODF
> calls it and what other office suites call it.

The <table:table> element (9.1.2) has an attribute table:template-name and an
attribute table:style-name. The style, which is referred by table:style-name is
of type table and therefore has only those attributes listed in
<style:table-properties> (17.15) and those do not contain anything from the
table template. For to be a style a table template would need a style:name
attribute, but it has a table:name attribute. And it would need to be child of
a <style:style> element. But that is not the case. Therefore my conclusion is,
that the <table:table-template> element is no style.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #14 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #12)
> ? What "feature" are you missing? If you mark the whole table and use Table
> > AutoFormat Styles and then button Add, you get all the cell styles. The
> size 4x4 is only a minimum, you can use larger prototypes as well.

Seems the build i was using from the 16th didnt update the table style
correctly (Styles & Formatting sidebar, table styles tab, update style).

(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #13)
> The <table:table> element (9.1.2) has an attribute table:template-name and
> an attribute table:style-name. The style, which is referred by
> table:style-name is of type table and therefore has only those attributes
> listed in <style:table-properties> (17.15) and those do not contain anything
> from the table template. For to be a style a table template would need a
> style:name attribute, but it has a table:name attribute. And it would need
> to be child of a <style:style> element. But that is not the case. Therefore
> my conclusion is, that the <table:table-template> element is no style.

Though we dont presently support table styles in the <style:style> tag, we will
in the future. Ultimately we dont have to call things by their ODF definition
name if we decide that the name used isnt suitable.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #15 from Regina Henschel <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #14)
> Though we dont presently support table styles in the <style:style> tag, we
> will in the future.

Please can you tell me more about such plans, perhaps in a direct mail to me in
case it is to long for this issue? The current implementation on master has
some problems, but in principle it follows the ODF 1.2 specification.

 Ultimately we dont have to call things by their ODF
> definition name if we decide that the name used isnt suitable.

How this feature is presented to the user is indeed a different problem.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Blocks|                            |101756


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101756
[Bug 101756] [META] Table styles bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #16 from Gerry <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 131584
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=131584&action=edit
Typical academic table style (2 variants)

I attached a typical academic table style (e.g. as they are used in many
academic journals), in two variants. It would be great to have such academic
table styles.

Academic styles are usually quite basic. There is no shaded area and only
horizontal lines.

Variant 1 shows that the first row has a horizontal top border and horizontal
bottom border. The last row has only a horizontal bottom border.

Variant 2 is almost the same like variant 1, but the last row represents a
summary row and therefore additionally has a horizontal top border.


It would be great if you could add such academic table styles to the default
set of table styles

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #17 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
*** Bug 106308 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 101349] Default set of table styles

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101349

--- Comment #18 from Yousuf Philips (jay) <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Gerry from comment #16)
> Academic styles are usually quite basic. There is no shaded area and only
> horizontal lines.

Looks similar to the 'Simple List 8' style i was proposing, so we'll definitely
have something close to it.

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