[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] New: Smaller default font name list

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] New: Smaller default font name list

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

            Bug ID: 91130
           Summary: Smaller default font name list
           Product: LibreOffice
           Version: 5.0.0.0.alpha0+ Master
          Hardware: Other
                OS: All
            Status: UNCONFIRMED
          Severity: enhancement
          Priority: medium
         Component: ux-advise
          Assignee: [hidden email]
          Reporter: [hidden email]
                CC: [hidden email]

Users can have 100s of fonts on their computer and they would all be listed in
the font name drop down list, though they are highly unlikely to use more than
30 of them, so i'd like to suggest a way to reduce this down for easier font
selection.

My idea is that the font name drop down list will begin with containing only a
short list of fonts that are commonly used and available on a user's system
(e.g. Liberation Serif, Times New Roman, Liberation Sans, Arial, etc) and
additional fonts will be added to the list according to the following
scenarios.

1) A user opens a document which contains fonts not already shown in the list
2) A user clicks on a 'More Fonts...' entry at the bottom of the list and
selects to use a particular font in the character dialog's font tab

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
I'd appreciate such a filter. But what is the default for all OS? Times New
Roman... please don't (unless on Windows). Helvetica, Garamond? And does it
makes sense to mix sans, serif, and mono fonts? Whats about the recently used?

However, +1 for working on the topic of a better font list.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

A (Andy) <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |NEW
                 CC|                            |[hidden email]
     Ever confirmed|0                           |1

--- Comment #2 from A (Andy) <[hidden email]> ---
This is an interesting enhancement.  
I regularly use only about 5 fonts and it would be good if the font filter
could be improved by for instance listing the maybe 3 to 5 user-dependent
(user-specific) most often used fonts at the beginning.  Currently, the font
list adapts in that way that the last used fonts will be shown at the beginning
after they had been selected.  
I don't know if there are maybe also other good/better solutions, but for me
Jay's proposals sound interesting to think about (especially No. 1, regarding
No. 2 I am not yet sure, because it should further be easy to select different
and new fonts without "many" mouse clicks).

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           See Also|                            |https://bugs.documentfounda
                   |                            |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88
                   |                            |416

--- Comment #3 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1)
> I'd appreciate such a filter. But what is the default for all OS?

As stated in the description, the default set of fonts would be of commonly
used fonts found in documents, and this would be irrelevant of OS, as documents
are not OS dependent. But if for example a linux user doesnt have one of these
default fonts installed, it wouldnt show in the list unless he opened a
document that contained it.

> Times New Roman... please don't (unless on Windows). Helvetica, Garamond?

Times New Roman is a very commonly used font in documents, as it was the
default font used in Microsoft Office until MSO 2007, and still is the default
font used in a number of office suites (WordPerfect, WPS/Kingsoft, AbiWord).

Helvetica isnt as commonly used in documents, except for being the default font
used in iWork.

> And does it makes sense to mix sans, serif, and mono fonts?

What is your reasoning behind not mixing them? Most users know fonts by their
names and not by their style classification.

> Whats about the recently used?

It would act similar to how it is now, with the list of recently used fonts
would appear at the top.

I believe the list would be of both open source and proprietary fonts in sans,
serif, monospace, symbol, and possibly script/handwriting. This list would also
have to work in various languages. The list would have to be saved and restored
when opening and closing LibreOffice, so a user doesnt have to re-add fonts in
a new session.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           See Also|                            |https://bugs.documentfounda
                   |                            |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77
                   |                            |878

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           See Also|                            |https://bugs.documentfounda
                   |                            |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66
                   |                            |792

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #4 from Bastián Díaz <[hidden email]> ---
It's amazing to have a better font list.

Please consider GtkFontChooserDialog elements
(https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkFontChooserDialog.html) to be
included in the fonts list or character dialog.

-Neutral sentence to font preview: The font preview through its name is very
ineffective. For example, the Tinos font, only available 5 characters to
preview, on the other hand, it is more difficult to compare with other fonts.

-Better search engine: In gtkfontchooserdialog, to write "mono" appear all font
containing that word, In LO Writer instead on only appears the font that starts
with this word (assumes that you know the exact name of the fonts installed on
your system).

--

Another important element is the document fonts (embedded or used in the
document). In the case of not being installed on the system, marked as "not
available".

Cheers

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #5 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Bastián Díaz from comment #4)
> Please consider GtkFontChooserDialog elements
> (https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkFontChooserDialog.html) to be
> included in the fonts list or character dialog.
>
> -Neutral sentence to font preview: The font preview through its name is very
> ineffective. For example, the Tinos font, only available 5 characters to
> preview, on the other hand, it is more difficult to compare with other fonts.

As it is likely only gtk3, it wouldnt be a solution that would work everywhere
and the better solution would be to have live preview of the font change with
the text in the document rather for an arbitrary sentence in a dialog. I used
to use standalone apps on Windows that used to provide this features. (
http://www.techsupportalert.com/best-free-font-manager.htm )

> -Better search engine: In gtkfontchooserdialog, to write "mono" appear all
> font containing that word, In LO Writer instead on only appears the font
> that starts with this word (assumes that you know the exact name of the
> fonts installed on your system).

Definitely a nice feature to have of filtering out the font list. Would suggest
that you suggest this in another enhancement bug report, as it is outside of
the scope of this one.

> Another important element is the document fonts (embedded or used in the
> document). In the case of not being installed on the system, marked as "not
> available".

Bug 78186.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #6 from Bastián Díaz <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #5)
> As it is likely only gtk3, it wouldnt be a solution that would work
> everywhere

I was referring to consider the design elements do not use the same
implementation.

and the better solution would be to have live preview of the font
> change with the text in the document rather for an arbitrary sentence in a
> dialog. I used to use standalone apps on Windows that used to provide this
> features. ( http://www.techsupportalert.com/best-free-font-manager.htm )
>

That sounds MS Office. Imagine that works with the current selection, but how
work with styles or font themes?.

> Definitely a nice feature to have of filtering out the font list. Would
> suggest that you suggest this in another enhancement bug report, as it is
> outside of the scope of this one.
>

OK

> > Another important element is the document fonts (embedded or used in the
> > document). In the case of not being installed on the system, marked as "not
> > available".
>
> Bug 78186.

Thanks

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

Yousuf Philips (jay) <[hidden email]> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Blocks|                            |102985


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102985
[Bug 102985] [META] Font bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> changed:

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                 CC|                            |[hidden email]

--- Comment #8 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
*** Bug 113089 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

kompilainenn <[hidden email]> changed:

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           See Also|                            |https://bugs.documentfounda
                   |                            |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10
                   |                            |1748

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #9 from Khaled Hosny <[hidden email]> ---
I’d close this WONTFIX, Font management is not something we should concern
ourselves about. Users with hundreds of fonts should use specialized font
management software that are available for all major operating systems.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #10 from Ole Tange <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 139530
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=139530&action=edit
Drop down with substring search

Mockup of what a fontselector could look like.

The text field is for entering substrings, that will dynamically filter the
list. The substrings can be positive (must contain) or negative (cannot
contain).

In this example the font names must contain the substrings 'igh' and 's', but
cannot contain 'old'.

The first column is for fonts used in the current documents.

The goals have been:

* To make it easy to select fonts already used in the document.
* To avoid scrolling when there are many fonts - both by presenting many fonts
and by dynamically filtering by substring. On my system the system
administrator decides which fonts are on the system - not me.

It is fairly backwards compatible: If you write the full font name it will
still match as substring.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #11 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Ole Tange from comment #10)

Interesting idea - and I added it right to the presentation I held at FOSDEM
yesterday. You find the slides at
https://de.slideshare.net/HeikoTietze/improvements-to-font-handling-in-libreoffice

But I doubt that a multi-column dropdown is a good solution. You need some kind
of overflow mechanism anyway, meaning vertical or horizontal scrolling is
required. Could be solved, but even more important is the question if users
need and want this large selection at once. IMHO the goal is to quickly select
one item/font and not to show as many as possible.

Just my first impression. Plan is to discuss the whole story in the design team
and to figure out how all aspects can be solved. You are very welcome to join
us.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #12 from Ole Tange <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 139592
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=139592&action=edit
Mockup2 of multi-column font selector

> But I doubt that a multi-column dropdown is a good solution.

An A/B-test might determine that.

Personally I prefer never having to use a scroll bar: I will much rather be
presented with all the information that fits on the screen and only when theres
is more information then have a scroll bar.

> You need some kind of overflow mechanism anyway, meaning vertical or horizontal scrolling is required.

We do not have horizontal scrolling now. I suggest we simply take the current
1-column layout and do as many columns of those as will fit on the screen (or
window) width.

If we did that, I would be able to see around 10x as many fonts on my system.

First column is still reserved for fonts used in the document.

See mockup2.

Sorting should not be done as in the mockup, but instead have them sorted
left-to-right:

A.. A.. B.. C..
C.. C.. D.. D..
D.. E.. F.. F..

> Could be solved, but even more important is the question if users need and want this large selection at once. IMHO the goal is to quickly select one item/font and not to show as many as possible.

The substring filtering will solve that for fonts not already in use: If you
want all font containing 'Bold' you simply enter 'Bold' and all the remaining
fonts in the list will contain the string 'bold'.

If you enter 'abo tse' you will probably only get 'Montserrat ExtraBold', as
very few other font will match that 'tse' and 'abo'.

For fonts already used in the document, I suggest they are listed in the first
column for easy selection.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #13 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Ole Tange from comment #12)
> I suggest we simply take the
> current 1-column layout and do as many columns of those as will fit on the
> screen (or window) width.
>
> If we did that, I would be able to see around 10x as many fonts on my system.

And it's still not enough when you have 1000 fonts as someone posted on a
ticket. Most users have around 20-50 but again do they want to see all at once?

> The substring filtering will solve that for fonts not already in use: If you
> want all font containing 'Bold' you simply enter 'Bold' and all the
> remaining fonts in the list will contain the string 'bold'.

Yes, that's how the filter should work.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #14 from Yousuf Philips (jay) <[hidden email]> ---
(In reply to Ole Tange from comment #10)
> The text field is for entering substrings, that will dynamically filter the
> list. The substrings can be positive (must contain) or negative (cannot
> contain).

Nice concept but way to complicated for the regular LO user, so would have very
limited benefit. Have to agree with Heiko that a multi-column approach isnt
useful.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

In reply to this post by bugzilla-daemon-2
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> changed:

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                 CC|                            |[hidden email]

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze <[hidden email]> ---
*** Bug 115186 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 91130] Smaller default font name list

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91130

--- Comment #16 from Ole Tange <[hidden email]> ---
Created attachment 139865
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=139865&action=edit
Dynamic font selector

Here is an "animation" of how I see the font selector may work.

For novices they simply type the font they want.

For advanced users they type sub strings to limit the list.

For experts they figure out the minimal sub strings they can use to hit a
single font and then press enter to select it.

The list is dynamically filtered after each keypress and contains 2 lists:

* First column for the fonts used in the document
* The remaining columns are for all installed fonts.

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