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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

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Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi,

some time ago, I had posted some messages on the FR users list about
that feature and was directed to this (at the time, for me) hidden list
by Cedric.

I think that feature is ok per se, but as it is currently implemented
(Writer v.3.5) is not complete: it lacks an option to set it back.

Yes. Set it back.

When I'm creating a new document, the zoom function is usually set to
close up. Thus, in the middle of the page, I can't see the new top and
bottom "angles", which makes difficult (read: impossible) to visually
place any item (image or paragraph let or right position come to mind)
relatively to the margins.

So, introducing the new feature is ok for me as it may help some users.
But this decision should not interfere with satisfied users who now
*lack* an important visual clue when devising their documents. In the
previous releases, the option was there: users could display or hide the
text limits; why change that?

This opinion seems somewhat shared by some others since the v.3.5
release. What people here think?


Thanks for your work and for your attention.

Best regards,
--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux
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NoOp NoOp
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

On 02/14/2012 03:16 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:

> Hi,
>
> some time ago, I had posted some messages on the FR users list about
> that feature and was directed to this (at the time, for me) hidden list
> by Cedric.
>
> I think that feature is ok per se, but as it is currently implemented
> (Writer v.3.5) is not complete: it lacks an option to set it back.
>
> Yes. Set it back.
>
> When I'm creating a new document, the zoom function is usually set to
> close up. Thus, in the middle of the page, I can't see the new top and
> bottom "angles", which makes difficult (read: impossible) to visually
> place any item (image or paragraph let or right position come to mind)
> relatively to the margins.
>
> So, introducing the new feature is ok for me as it may help some users.
> But this decision should not interfere with satisfied users who now
> *lack* an important visual clue when devising their documents. In the
> previous releases, the option was there: users could display or hide the
> text limits; why change that?
>
> This opinion seems somewhat shared by some others since the v.3.5
> release. What people here think?
...

+1
and it's probably worth pointing out this thread on the users list:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/users@.../msg16735.html>
[[libreoffice-users] LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer]
for reference.

Eliminating the Text Boundaries margin borders is (IMO) a definite
regression.

This list doesn't seem to be very apparent to any users and is not
listed here:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
or here:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/#Global_Lists
or here:
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/#Local_Regional_Lists
and seems to only be here:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Meeting ground for hackers and UX experts - get advise here for user
experience questions.
Please confine discussions about implementation details and
decision-making about the right UX solution to the respective lists.]

So is this the correct list, or is the design list more appropriate? If
the latter is the case, then it appears that this request from January
has been ignored:
<http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg03578.html>
[libreoffice-design] Text boundaries like 3.4.x

However, can anyone on this list point me (us) to a bug report detailing
the change from showing document borders to the existing 3.5 default of
not showing the borders?
<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31251>
[Bug 31251 - [EasyHack] Make the default page look better ]
doesn't seem to address the issue. So how can a change like this be
changed without a specific bug report? Is merely creating a wiki page[1]
annotating such a change acceptable instead?

[1]
<http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Writer_SpecialIndicators#Document_Margin_Design>
[Document Margin Design]
--> <http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/DocumentBorder>


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Jan Holesovsky Jan Holesovsky
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi NoOp, Jean-Francois,

NoOp píše v Út 14. 02. 2012 v 20:16 -0800:
 
> > So, introducing the new feature is ok for me as it may help some users.
> > But this decision should not interfere with satisfied users who now
> > *lack* an important visual clue when devising their documents. In the
> > previous releases, the option was there: users could display or hide the
> > text limits; why change that?

Thank you very much for the feedback!  The change was discussed here,
mostly with Christoph [cc'd], see:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2011-August/000240.html

Basically it comes from the design that was proposed already in the OOo
times, see http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/DocumentBorder .
The current (3.5) design looked as the best option, was in the daily
builds [http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/] for several months,
and nobody complained - so we were happy with it; what a pity that you
haven't pointed it out earlier :-(

The good news is - nothing is lost!  It is just code, and can be
changed.  It is here:

http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/source/core/layout/paintfrm.cxx#6276

[the method lcl_CreatePageAreaDelimiterPrimitives()], please play with
it a bit, and try to come up with something that will be both pretty,
and will fit your needs - I am sorry, but we do not want just to switch
back to the old behavior, it was so 90's, and we have already been
getting too much beating for looking old, and obsolete.

If you need any help, please come to the #libreoffice-dev on
irc.freenode.net.

> So is this the correct list, or is the design list more appropriate?

The design list has much broader goal than this mailing list - it
involves website design discussions, general discussions, etc.  The goal
of libreoffice-ux-advise@ is to get quick feedback on patches that
involve usability, and tight and fast designers + hackers co-operation.
Please join if you are interested!

>  If
> the latter is the case, then it appears that this request from January
> has been ignored:
> <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg03578.html>
> [libreoffice-design] Text boundaries like 3.4.x

We have too many switches already, sorry, adding more options is not
what we want.  Even with the 'borders' feature we were able to find a
solution that fits all involved, I am sure we will succeed here too.

> doesn't seem to address the issue. So how can a change like this be
> changed without a specific bug report?

Easily - somebody creates a patch, sends info about that to this list,
and then it is is discussed here.  If it does not fit as it is, then it
is tweaked until both the original developer + the UX people are all
happy :-)

All the best,
Kendy

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi all!

Sorry to be here in this list, I've read about the problem and have some ideas
how to solve this issue with borders:

1. Most of users wanting this borders are typing a lot and, to my mind, have
to work with shown non-printing characters. So the fist idea is to show
borders with non-printing characters enabled.

2. The second thing is for the people working with images a lot. The idea is
to show border with thin or dashed line only when user moves (drags or moves
using the keyboard) an object (Table, Image, etc.). And the other thing is
making border appear when something is snapped to it. I think it will be
useful, when object snaps to the border and you see, that it snaps to the
border exactly, but not to the other grid line.

3. Add the check box to show the page borders to Tools → Options → LibreOffice
Writer → Grid. I think this is the place for such king of check box. I've read
you don't want to add it, but some users think that should be the way to get
the borders back and this menu have lots of free space and it's logical to
place the check box there.

With bets regards,
Victor

P.S. I'm using LibreOffice to write some text (for example my thesis) and I
think it's easier to do it in LibreOffice then in MSO.


On Wednesday 15 February 2012 11:44:31 Jan Holesovsky wrote:

> Hi NoOp, Jean-Francois,
>
> NoOp píše v Út 14. 02. 2012 v 20:16 -0800:
> > > So, introducing the new feature is ok for me as it may help some users.
> > > But this decision should not interfere with satisfied users who now
> > > *lack* an important visual clue when devising their documents. In the
> > > previous releases, the option was there: users could display or hide the
> > > text limits; why change that?
>
> Thank you very much for the feedback!  The change was discussed here,
> mostly with Christoph [cc'd], see:
>
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2011-August/0002
> 40.html
>
> Basically it comes from the design that was proposed already in the OOo
> times, see http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/DocumentBorder .
> The current (3.5) design looked as the best option, was in the daily
> builds [http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/] for several months,
> and nobody complained - so we were happy with it; what a pity that you
> haven't pointed it out earlier :-(
>
> The good news is - nothing is lost!  It is just code, and can be
> changed.  It is here:
>
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/source/core/layout/paintfrm.cxx
> #6276
>
> [the method lcl_CreatePageAreaDelimiterPrimitives()], please play with
> it a bit, and try to come up with something that will be both pretty,
> and will fit your needs - I am sorry, but we do not want just to switch
> back to the old behavior, it was so 90's, and we have already been
> getting too much beating for looking old, and obsolete.
>
> If you need any help, please come to the #libreoffice-dev on
> irc.freenode.net.
>
> > So is this the correct list, or is the design list more appropriate?
>
> The design list has much broader goal than this mailing list - it
> involves website design discussions, general discussions, etc.  The goal
> of libreoffice-ux-advise@ is to get quick feedback on patches that
> involve usability, and tight and fast designers + hackers co-operation.
> Please join if you are interested!
>
> >  If
> >
> > the latter is the case, then it appears that this request from January
> > has been ignored:
> > <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg03578.html>
> > [libreoffice-design] Text boundaries like 3.4.x
>
> We have too many switches already, sorry, adding more options is not
> what we want.  Even with the 'borders' feature we were able to find a
> solution that fits all involved, I am sure we will succeed here too.
>
> > doesn't seem to address the issue. So how can a change like this be
> > changed without a specific bug report?
>
> Easily - somebody creates a patch, sends info about that to this list,
> and then it is is discussed here.  If it does not fit as it is, then it
> is tweaked until both the original developer + the UX people are all
> happy :-)
>
> All the best,
> Kendy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi.

On 15 February 2012 15:37, Vit <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> Sorry to be here in this list, I've read about the problem and have some ideas
> how to solve this issue with borders:
>
> 1. Most of users wanting this borders are typing a lot and, to my mind, have
> to work with shown non-printing characters. So the fist idea is to show
> borders with non-printing characters enabled.

Note that 3.5 also adds hanging punctuation etc. So this might
actually look quite ugly now.


> 2. The second thing is for the people working with images a lot. The idea is
> to show border with thin or dashed line only when user moves (drags or moves
> using the keyboard) an object (Table, Image, etc.). And the other thing is
> making border appear when something is snapped to it. I think it will be
> useful, when object snaps to the border and you see, that it snaps to the
> border exactly, but not to the other grid line.

This sounds like a good idea and would help with Rainer's test case in
fdo# 46073.


> 3. Add the check box to show the page borders to Tools → Options → LibreOffice
> Writer → Grid. I think this is the place for such king of check box. I've read
> you don't want to add it, but some users think that should be the way to get
> the borders back and this menu have lots of free space and it's logical to
> place the check box there.

Cédric just said no on the dev list (there's a similar thread) and I
have to concur. We already have enough options (I believe).

Astron.
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

In reply to this post by Jan Holesovsky
On 02/15/2012 02:44 AM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:

> Hi NoOp, Jean-Francois,
>
> NoOp píše v Út 14. 02. 2012 v 20:16 -0800:
>
>>> So, introducing the new feature is ok for me as it may help some
>>> users. But this decision should not interfere with satisfied
>>> users who now *lack* an important visual clue when devising their
>>> documents. In the previous releases, the option was there: users
>>> could display or hide the text limits; why change that?
>
> Thank you very much for the feedback!  The change was discussed
> here, mostly with Christoph [cc'd], see:
>
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2011-August/000240.html

I sincerely appreciate your reponse. However:

Perhaps... such a dramatic change should have also been discussed on the
discuss and/or user list before implementation?

That thread doesn't focus on the 'no border'/modified
Edit|View|Text Boundries (margin and column) issue(s), but instead
primarily discuses/focuses (as it's subject implies) "Header and Footers
separators design").

>
> Basically it comes from the design that was proposed already in the
> OOo times, see
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/DocumentBorder .

That page was last modified in 2009:
[This page was last modified on 18 November 2009, at 19:02]
So you've/we've implemented a change that was suggested on OOo over 2
years ago for the sake of 'modernization' that has never been
implemented in OOo, including OOo-dev 3.4.0? Well done.


> The current (3.5) design looked as the best option, was in the daily
> builds [http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/] for several
> months, and nobody complained - so we were happy with it; what a pity
> that you haven't pointed it out earlier :-

There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have pointed it
out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not have discovered
the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the 'new & improved version'
and would not have noticed until they upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46073
[Bug 46073 - Page Layout Guides (margins, headers, footers) No Longer
Visible (regression bug) ]

>
> The good news is - nothing is lost!  It is just code, and can be
> changed.  It is here:
>
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/source/core/layout/paintfrm.cxx#6276
>
>  [the method lcl_CreatePageAreaDelimiterPrimitives()], please play
> with it a bit, and try to come up with something that will be both
> pretty, and will fit your needs - I am sorry, but we do not want just
> to switch back to the old behavior, it was so 90's, and we have
> already been getting too much beating for looking old, and obsolete.

Great! Then is shouldn't be difficult for those that made the change to:
1) modify the code to replace the original code to change it back,
and/or 2) create an extension to allow users the option to switch
between the two... right?

>
> If you need any help, please come to the #libreoffice-dev on
> irc.freenode.net.

If you need user feedback, please visit [hidden email] for
added user experiences/remarks.

>
>> So is this the correct list, or is the design list more
>> appropriate?
>
> The design list has much broader goal than this mailing list - it
> involves website design discussions, general discussions, etc.  The
> goal of libreoffice-ux-advise@ is to get quick feedback on patches
> that involve usability, and tight and fast designers + hackers
> co-operation. Please join if you are interested!

Thank you for that information/advise. Given the:
>> Easily - somebody creates a patch, sends info about that to this
>> list, and then it is is discussed here.  If it does not fit as it
>> is, then it is tweaked until both the original developer + the UX
>> people are all
resonse (below), it would seem to me that LO should relook at their policy.

>
>> If the latter is the case, then it appears that this request from
>> January has been ignored:
>> <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg03578.html>
>> [libreoffice-design] Text boundaries like 3.4.x
>
> We have too many switches already, sorry, adding more options is not
> what we want.  Even with the 'borders' feature we were able to find
> a solution that fits all involved, I am sure we will succeed here
> too.

Please explain 'we were able to find a solution that fits all involved'.
Who is "we" and what exactly was the solved.

>
>> doesn't seem to address the issue. So how can a change like this
>> be changed without a specific bug report?
>
> Easily - somebody creates a patch, sends info about that to this
> list, and then it is is discussed here.  If it does not fit as it is,
> then it is tweaked until both the original developer + the UX people
> are all happy :-)

So let's review:

1. "Somebody creates a patch that affects the entire
look/feel/GUI/workfolow et al of LO and "sends info about that to this
list" and then it is is discussed here."

2. "If it does not fit as it is, then it is tweaked until both the
original developer + the UX people are all happy :-)"

And then, apparently, the change is incorportated in the next LO
release... regardless of user feedback/tests? Amazing. Of course LO
developers/testers et al will complain that 3.5 has been available for
testing for several months. But LO need to expect and understand that LO
have a similar/migrated OOo user base, so to react with "That was a
design choice that was started long ago in the OpenOffice.org
times, discussed at least lively with Christoph Noack (and most probably
on the ux-advise list) a few months ago...

I don't really like being asked to get some different feature back right
after the release when people have plenty of times to report the
(not-really-a) bug months before."
<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.devel/24300>
is nonsense.

It appears that Cedric is unwilling to make any changes:
<http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.devel/24267>
[No page and Columns boundaries in 3.5]

So who determines who these "ux-adivse" determiners who apparently have
the power to make these 'changes' are?

Again:
====
<http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
"About Libreoffice-ux-advise>
       
English (USA)

Meeting ground for hackers and UX experts - get advise here for user
experience questions

Please confine discussions about implementation details and
decision-making about the right UX solution to the respective lists.

To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the
Libreoffice-ux-advise Archives. "
===

I see nothing in that indicating that this list is somehow the
place/authority to:

>
> 1. "Somebody creates a patch that affects the entire
> look/feel/GUI/workfolow et al of LO and "sends info about that to
> this list" and then it is is discussed here."
>
> 2. "If it does not fit as it is, then it is tweaked until both the
> original developer + the UX people are all happy :-)"

Bottom line is that LO decided to implement Cedrics header/footer
additions (should have been an extension IMO as it's already pissing
some users off
(<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.user/17009>)
and seemed surprised when the change goes live as a standard release:
====
"http://www.libreoffice.org/download/
LibreOffice 3.5.0 Final (2012-02-14)

Our latest, feature rich version"
====

So it's a release, it's not a beta/RC etc. LO have significantly
modified the basic document page & workflow and responses are along the
lines of:
<https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46073#c7>

====
I don't really like being asked to get some different feature back right
after the release when people have plenty of times to report the
(not-really-a) bug months before.

--
Cedric
====


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi NoOp,

I didn't want to reply to this thread as I would turn pretty angry at it
and say bad things... too late, I'm answering.

On Thu, 2012-02-16 at 20:31 -0800, NoOp wrote:
> On 02/15/2012 02:44 AM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
> > NoOp píše v Út 14. 02. 2012 v 20:16 -0800:
> I sincerely appreciate your reponse. However:
>
> Perhaps... such a dramatic change should have also been discussed on the
> discuss and/or user list before implementation?

Discussing a single UI change on the users mailing list is a pure no-go
for me (and other devs will back me up for sure). That is only the start
of a troll that never come to a satisfying solution as there is always
someone disagreeing with the others.

Discussing with UI experts is OK as they know that area more than us
developers and they are sensible persons who avoid trolls and endless
discussions.

> That thread doesn't focus on the 'no border'/modified
> Edit|View|Text Boundries (margin and column) issue(s), but instead
> primarily discuses/focuses (as it's subject implies) "Header and Footers
> separators design").

If you read the whole thread you'll see that what triggered the text
boundaries changes was the display of something conflicting in the
boundaries area. Note that the same reason also motivated the change of
the page break display.

> > Basically it comes from the design that was proposed already in the
> > OOo times, see
> > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/DocumentBorder .
>
> That page was last modified in 2009:
> [This page was last modified on 18 November 2009, at 19:02]
> So you've/we've implemented a change that was suggested on OOo over 2
> years ago for the sake of 'modernization' that has never been
> implemented in OOo, including OOo-dev 3.4.0? Well done.

Wasn't implemented by lazyness / lack of interested developer by that
time. Not being implemented in the OOo times doesn't necessarily means
it wasn't a good idea (there are years-old bugs in the bugzilla and they
are interesting ones).

> There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have pointed it
> out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not have discovered
> the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the 'new & improved version'
> and would not have noticed until they upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.

I consider that people able to post to the dev / ux-advise / design
mailing lists are also able to download daily builds and have a look at
them before the release. And if they can't do that they can also
participate in the RC testing cycle: they aren't "primary users" as you
mention: the "primary users" never shout on these mailing lists.

> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46073
> [Bug 46073 - Page Layout Guides (margins, headers, footers) No Longer
> Visible (regression bug) ]

Sorry, that's not a even a bug... but a feature request.

> Great! Then is shouldn't be difficult for those that made the change to:
> 1) modify the code to replace the original code to change it back,
> and/or 2) create an extension to allow users the option to switch
> between the two... right?

1) is a no-go: I simply don't want to revert a code change only because
of a vocal minority claiming for some feature to come back. It's evil to
say, but 3.4 still have the old display.

2) An extension to sw display is simply not possible ATM.

The only possible solution here is to find a solution that fits both
kinds users: the ones wanting big rectangles everywhere and the ones
wanting something smooth but still showing the area.

> If you need user feedback, please visit [hidden email] for
> added user experiences/remarks.

As mentioned earlier, asking for feedback on the users lists is a black
hole.

> Thank you for that information/advise. Given the:
> >> Easily - somebody creates a patch, sends info about that to this
> >> list, and then it is is discussed here.  If it does not fit as it
> >> is, then it is tweaked until both the original developer + the UX
> >> people are all
> resonse (below), it would seem to me that LO should relook at their policy.

/// autocensored really harsh remark!

> >> If the latter is the case, then it appears that this request from
> >> January has been ignored:
> >> <http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg03578.html>
> >> [libreoffice-design] Text boundaries like 3.4.x
> >
> > We have too many switches already, sorry, adding more options is not
> > what we want.  Even with the 'borders' feature we were able to find
> > a solution that fits all involved, I am sure we will succeed here
> > too.
>
> Please explain 'we were able to find a solution that fits all involved'.
> Who is "we" and what exactly was the solved.

Please read the mailing lists archives: they are full of details to
answer those questions.

> So let's review:
>
> 1. "Somebody creates a patch that affects the entire
> look/feel/GUI/workfolow et al of LO and "sends info about that to this
> list" and then it is is discussed here."
>
> 2. "If it does not fit as it is, then it is tweaked until both the
> original developer + the UX people are all happy :-)"
>
> And then, apparently, the change is incorportated in the next LO
> release... regardless of user feedback/tests? Amazing. Of course LO
> developers/testers et al will complain that 3.5 has been available for
> testing for several months. But LO need to expect and understand that LO
> have a similar/migrated OOo user base, so to react with "That was a
> design choice that was started long ago in the OpenOffice.org
> times, discussed at least lively with Christoph Noack (and most probably
> on the ux-advise list) a few months ago...

We surely want the users to hack their own features and produce their
own office suite... but it seems we need to do it for them.

> I don't really like being asked to get some different feature back right
> after the release when people have plenty of times to report the
> (not-really-a) bug months before."
> <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.devel/24300>
> is nonsense.
>
> It appears that Cedric is unwilling to make any changes:
> <http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.devel/24267>
> [No page and Columns boundaries in 3.5]

No I'm not willing to waste my time on something that could have been
improved months earlier. I'll be happy to integrate patches that don't
destroy the new feature's main idea... but I won't spend a single minute
hacking on it.

> So who determines who these "ux-adivse" determiners who apparently have
> the power to make these 'changes' are?

Nobody really has power here: it usually is only a constructive
discussion between sensible persons (one or more UI designer and a
hacker).

Remember that in a meritocracy the ones who do the work have the power
in the end.

> Bottom line is that LO decided to implement Cedrics header/footer
[...]

You're repeating yourself... I already spent too much of my hacking time
to reply to your email. Consider me as a dead body from now in that
discussion.

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

In reply to this post by NoOp
Hi all,

NoOp wrote (17-02-12 05:31)
> On 02/15/2012 02:44 AM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:

>> The current (3.5) design looked as the best option, was in the daily
>> builds [http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/] for several
>> months, and nobody complained - so we were happy with it; what a pity
>> that you haven't pointed it out earlier :-
>
> There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have pointed it
> out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not have discovered
> the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the 'new&  improved version'
> and would not have noticed until they upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.

I truly find that people active here in the community, could have spoken
up earlier and if did not do so, now should not support complains from
others in the sense that they agree that it is a bad decision.

>> The good news is - nothing is lost!  It is just code, and can be
>> changed.  It is here:
>>
> Great! Then is shouldn't be difficult for those that made the change to:
> 1) modify the code to replace the original code to change it back,
> and/or 2) create an extension to allow users the option to switch
> between the two... right?

And as a consequence, still we can only be modest in our requests.

Adding one thing (I've not read all comments in detail and will not be
able to do that without causing trouble..) :
if it comes to a point where a change to the current situation is made,
to me it would look a good solution to change the behaviour of the menu
View > Text Boundaries: ticked = show the old boundaries; unticked =
show the current markers. (And I do not expect this to be an easy hack).


Furthermore ... I hope we all enjoy all the good things 3.5.0 brings us :-)

Cheers,

--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

In reply to this post by NoOp
Hi NoOp,

On Thu, 2012-02-16 at 20:31 -0800, NoOp wrote:
> There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have pointed it
> out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not have discovered
> the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the 'new & improved version'
> and would not have noticed until they upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.

        Sure - so they are utterly dis-connected from development :-) Perhaps
if they have such a passionate need for XYZ feature - this will
encourage them to be more interested in development, perhaps it might
even help them be interested in running our release candidates and doing
pre-release testing, perhaps if they can't get what they want, they
might even be inspired to pay for development to help move the product
in the good direction that they like to go in.

        It is -even-possible- that they might be polite and friendly to the
developers that do the coding, and -winsomely- persuade them to do
something else. Although, that does seem quite a stretch I admit ! :-)

        Here is the thing - for any given change - *anything* there will be
someone to whinge about it. Leadership is sifting the whinges from the
legitimate concerns & having the courage of your convictions in this
regard. It is simply impossible to please all the people all of the
time.

        As such, I think Cedric is doing a great job of leadership :-)

        More to the point I would -hate- to build a culture of giving in to
whingers: we will never change anything on that basis. It is one thing
to have a lot of people moaning about how the UI is bad, and don't we
need to change it. It is another to try to make the life of one of the
premier people helping to improve the UI miserable.

        IIRC, Cedric has the full support of the ESC on this, as/when we
discussed it.

        Of course - if you want to write some code, to add an option, to allow
users to re-introduce that border: and make it purple and ten pixels
thick as well ;-) then please feel free - we'll review it and perhaps
merge it too. We like to talk code. If there is no-one with any coding
skills that holds your point of view, then it is clearly a vanishing
minority one :-)

        As such - can we discuss constructive solutions, preferably backed by
real code.

        All the best,

                Michael.

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi,

first of all, let me be completely clear: I have no doubt the devs and,
more generally, the TDF people do their best to bring a very good tool
with very few resources.

Second, I have nothing personal against anyone anywhere. I have never
had and won't start with an office automation suite people I happen to
appreciate.

It seems some have taken my words (here and elsewhere) way too
personally. As I can see some steam out of this thread I just want to
summarize what I think and the direction I'd like for the feature at
hand. Let's come back to a more "relaxed" discussion.


I consider the text boundaries to be a visual clue to the page layout,
as much as the un-printable chars are. Completely dropping that feature
for the new "angles" (actual name?) is then inappropriate in that
regard. On the opposite, proposing the "angles" for people who don't
want the un-printable chars (there are some, though I do my best to
convert them ;) is ok, as far as the text boundaries can be optionally
displayed if the user so wishes.
-> Adding this option to the unprintable chars switch would be a good
option, IMO.


Ah, yes: please, don't tell the new UX-ers that they'd get what they
want if they code it themselves. That's not encouraging into any further
participation, thus this is counter-productive.


All the best and thank you for your attention,
--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete


On Fri, 2012-02-17 at 18:47 +0100, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:
> I consider the text boundaries to be a visual clue to the page layout,
> as much as the un-printable chars are. Completely dropping that feature
> for the new "angles" (actual name?) is then inappropriate in that
> regard. On the opposite, proposing the "angles" for people who don't
> want the un-printable chars (there are some, though I do my best to
> convert them ;) is ok, as far as the text boundaries can be optionally
> displayed if the user so wishes.
> -> Adding this option to the unprintable chars switch would be a good
> option, IMO.

        Not a bad suggestion I guess, at least something concrete &
constructive :-) now we just need someone to hack it up, and to see if
Cedric likes it.

        ATB,

                Michael.

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

In reply to this post by Cor Nouws
On 02/17/2012 01:20 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> NoOp wrote (17-02-12 05:31)
>> On 02/15/2012 02:44 AM, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
>
>>> The current (3.5) design looked as the best option, was in the daily
>>> builds [http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/] for several
>>> months, and nobody complained - so we were happy with it; what a pity
>>> that you haven't pointed it out earlier :-
>>
>> There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have pointed it
>> out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not have discovered
>> the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the 'new&  improved version'
>> and would not have noticed until they upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.
>
> I truly find that people active here in the community, could have spoken
> up earlier and if did not do so, now should not support complains from
> others in the sense that they agree that it is a bad decision.

Cor, I appreciate the comment & concern. However please keep in mind
that thousands of users that are just now enticed by:
<http://www.libreoffice.org/download/>
<quote>
LibreOffice 3.5.0 Final (2012-02-14)

Our latest, feature rich version
</quote>
will have downloaded 3.5, overwritten their 3.x and suddenly discover
that 3.5 has *significantly* changed the display and ability to view and
work with documents as in previous versions.

Yes, I suppose that I could have spoken up earlier if noticed the issue
directly during casual tests of 3.5. However, would it have actually
made a difference? I think not given the responses on this list, the dev
list, and the user list.

Further, I don't understand "complains from others in the sense that
they agree that it is a bad decision". This list states: "Meeting ground
for hackers and UX experts - get advise here for user
experience questions.
Please confine discussions about implementation details and
decision-making about the right UX solution to the respective lists.]"

Would you care to clarify?

For some obtuse reason this list seems to have become the defacto place
for all decisions LO UX (*User* interface). <
Meeting ground for hackers and UX experts - get advise here for user
experience questions.

What exactly does that mean? Michael Meeks labels me as a 'whinger'[1]
simply for stating my opinions regarding the issue on this list. Fair
enough... I'm a 'whinger'. Cor deems that I should have spoken up
earlier and "should not support complains from others". What a positive
reaction from all of you.

Cedric responds to:

>
>>> There will be much "you should have tested", "you should have
>>> pointed it out earlier"; unfortunately, the primary users will not
>>> have discovered the "improvement"/"feature" was released in the
>>> 'new & improved version' and would not have noticed until they
>>> upgraded from 3.4 to 3.5.
>
> I consider that people able to post to the dev / ux-advise / design
> mailing lists are also able to download daily builds and have a look at
> them before the release. And if they can't do that they can also
> participate in the RC testing cycle: they aren't "primary users" as you
> mention: the "primary users" never shout on these mailing lists.

My comment to Cedric is this: users were not aware of this list (or your
changes) prior to the issue being raised on the LO users list. How would
they have known? What channels would/should they have taken to
advise/protest/whatever regarding your changes? No users were aware of
ux-adv (oddly named as "libreoffice-ux-advise" as it seems that no
"users" can offer advise here without being blasted by the powers to be.

Certainly LO (developers, testers, advocates, et al) are experienced
enough to expect feedback issue on release changes. I can't understand
why this issue, which is a *significant* change to the basic document
wasn't expected as well.

@Cedric: you can '/// autocensored really harsh remark!' all you wish.
I'm disappointed that you take that attitude when someone posts comments
regarding the issue(s) with your significant changes to the basic LO
Writer basic page look/feel/workflow. You state:
"As mentioned earlier, asking for feedback on the users lists is a black
hole." So just how are such significant changes decided?
  Nevermind:
"You're repeating yourself... I already spent too much of my hacking
time to reply to your email. Consider me as a dead body from now in that
discussion."

So... I'm a whinger & a troll simply for stating an objection to a
significant change in LO 3.5.
  We've established that it's not acceptable to forward/promote/backup
anothers complaints due the to the fact that I should have noticed the
problem earlier and complained then (that is what you are implying Cor
and Cedric, correct?). So be it. Best of luck and my sincere apologies
for taking your time. I'll not disturb your list any further.

Gary Lee

[1]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whinger
...

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi Gary,

NoOp wrote (18-02-12 05:31)

>> I truly find that people active here in the community, could have spoken
>> up earlier and if did not do so, now should not support complains from
>> others in the sense that they agree that it is a bad decision.
>
> Cor, I appreciate the comment&  concern. However please keep in mind
> that thousands of users that are just now enticed by:
> <http://www.libreoffice.org/download/>
> <quote>
> LibreOffice 3.5.0 Final (2012-02-14)
>
> Our latest, feature rich version
> </quote>
> will have downloaded 3.5, overwritten their 3.x and suddenly discover
> that 3.5 has *significantly* changed the display and ability to view and
> work with documents as in previous versions.
>
> Yes, I suppose that I could have spoken up earlier if noticed the issue
> directly during casual tests of 3.5. However, would it have actually
> made a difference? I think not given the responses on this list, the dev
> list, and the user list.
>
> Further, I don't understand "complains from others in the sense that
> they agree that it is a bad decision". This list states: "Meeting ground
> for hackers and UX experts - get advise here for user
> experience questions.
> Please confine discussions about implementation details and
> decision-making about the right UX solution to the respective lists.]"
>
> Would you care to clarify?

Well, obviously hard for me to explain clear enough in English,
especially when I am in a hurry,
I think it is fair that the people that are involved, carry the blame if
now suddenly users discover that they are negatively affected by the
change. So me too: I did of course notice the change, and made up my
mind (also considering what I noticed from users that step from Word to
Writer and want to get rid of the boundaries) that it was OK.
If now users show up that really need it for some reason, I made a mistake.
So I can consider to put it somewhere in my basket (it might fall out)
and to lend a hand to try to find a solution. Rather then speaking up
load about a mistake or something like that, that others would have made.

(However: since we also had beta's publicly announced, thus even other
users could have noticed earlier, I don't blame myself too much ;-) )

I hope this helps,

--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

In reply to this post by NoOp
NoOp wrote (18-02-12 05:31)

> [...]
> Yes, I suppose that I could have spoken up earlier if noticed the issue
> directly during casual tests of 3.5. However, would it have actually
> made a difference? I think not given the responses on this list, the dev
> list, and the user list.

While doing dish washing, my thoughts suddenly stopped at this, and I
remember I did skip this paragraph yesterday.

So, from my memory, and from my own experience solely with the work
towards 3.5, I know
  -  two features changes that were reverted for time being, because
they were not mature/ready/caused problems, as was clear from (partly)
my testing: changes in default styles in Writer, and changes in the RTF
import.
  - also, some massive changes in 3.4.5 (IIRC) handling of password
protected files was the result of early testing.
  - furthermore a proposed change by one of the devs for key bindings
(Full screen) has not been implemented, because we all lacked time to
discuss that in enough detail at that time.

So I cannot confirm what you expect.
( I do not write that it is easy to bring ideas forward and to find
enough time to do the testing etc needed for these contributions ;-) / :-\ )

Kind regards,

--
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  - http://nl.libreoffice.org

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

In reply to this post by Jean-Francois Nifenecker
Hi Jean-Francois,

On Fri, 2012-02-17 at 18:47 +0100, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:
> I consider the text boundaries to be a visual clue to the page layout,
> as much as the un-printable chars are. Completely dropping that feature
> for the new "angles" (actual name?) is then inappropriate in that
> regard. On the opposite, proposing the "angles" for people who don't
> want the un-printable chars (there are some, though I do my best to
> convert them ;) is ok, as far as the text boundaries can be optionally
> displayed if the user so wishes.
> -> Adding this option to the unprintable chars switch would be a good
> option, IMO.

That proposition looks good to me as it provides all three
possibilities. That being said I don't know when I'll be able to work on
it: that's the eternal problem of priorities ;)

If someone wants to do it before me, feel free to have a look at
sw/source/core/layout/paintfrm.cxx file.

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi again Jean-Francois,

On Mon, 2012-02-20 at 10:17 +0100, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-02-17 at 18:47 +0100, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:
> > I consider the text boundaries to be a visual clue to the page layout,
> > as much as the un-printable chars are. Completely dropping that feature
> > for the new "angles" (actual name?) is then inappropriate in that
> > regard. On the opposite, proposing the "angles" for people who don't
> > want the un-printable chars (there are some, though I do my best to
> > convert them ;) is ok, as far as the text boundaries can be optionally
> > displayed if the user so wishes.
> > -> Adding this option to the unprintable chars switch would be a good
> > option, IMO.
>
> That proposition looks good to me as it provides all three
> possibilities. That being said I don't know when I'll be able to work on
> it: that's the eternal problem of priorities ;)
>
> If someone wants to do it before me, feel free to have a look at
> sw/source/core/layout/paintfrm.cxx file.

Finally found some time / courage to implement it. You'll find it on
master branch (target 3.6):

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=7794baf89e74fc8308c8e1505f47d60b6547465f

Don't hesitate to grab a daily build to test it.

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

Hi Cedric!

Le 20/02/2012 15:47, Cedric Bosdonnat a écrit :
>
> Finally found some time / courage to implement it. You'll find it on
> master branch (target 3.6):
>
> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=7794baf89e74fc8308c8e1505f47d60b6547465f

Yeah!

>
> Don't hesitate to grab a daily build to test it.
>

I won't, for sure!

Thanks for your hard work and for listening.

All the best,
--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

On Mon, 2012-02-20 at 18:17 +0100, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:
> > Don't hesitate to grab a daily build to test it.
> >
>
> I won't, for sure!

That's not fair: suggesting an idea and not testing it ;)

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

On Mon, 2012-02-20 at 18:47 +0100, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-02-20 at 18:17 +0100, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:
> > > Don't hesitate to grab a daily build to test it.
> > >
> >
> > I won't, for sure!
>
> That's not fair: suggesting an idea and not testing it ;)

Sorry, miss-read your email... and hit send button too quickly. Thanks
for your testing ;)

--
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete

In reply to this post by Cedric Bosdonnat
Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (20-02-12 15:47)

> Don't hesitate to grab a daily build to test it.

daily/Linux-x86_10-Release_Configuration/ still missing :-\

Luckily I did a local build yesterday, and while doing my work with
that, was catched by the new funcionality. Great solution.
Thanks!

If only more people were even more serious with testing and giving
feedback in an early stage :-)


--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org

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