Logo/mascot competition

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Logo/mascot competition

Hi list, :-)

I'm really happy to have started up the contact with Ubuntu Artwork,
and very grateful for the kind and positive response from John Baer,
Shane Fagan and others.

@TDF guys: I'd like to make one last plea for my idea of a logo/mascot
competition (if you have clear arguments against it, I'll drop the
subject). IMHO, the advantages of organizing a competition are this:

1) By sourcing ideas from the world at large, we can accumulate a
large range of choices. It worked for OOo's Otto the seagull, it can
work for us. From the little contact-building I've been doing, I can
feel there's a large number of artists that would respond. We could
really develop some superb branding.

2) It would be a good opportunity for publicizing the TDF/LibO
project. I have lots of ideas and energy for this, and I'm sure we can
get the Web buzzing about us again. It could be developed into a
superb marketing opportunity.

3) We can certainly attract quite a few new contributors to the LibO
project, in artwork/marketing and in other areas. And we can
demonstrate our commitment to openness, community-building and
meritocracy.

4) We can capitalize on the contact we've made with Ubuntu Artwork; if
they're willing, they can "foster" us in this to some extent, and LibO
participants can learn and develop a lot of good workflow methods and
practices from an experienced and successful "big brother" project. It
will also develop and strengthen this new relationship.

5) By doing this in some kind of "association" (to be defined) with
Ubuntu, there can be beneficial publicity for both projects. And for
the FOSS world in general. FOSS projects need to work together, and we
need to breakdown some of the "ideology" splits and barriers that have
been such a negative brake to widespread adoption and development of
FOSS. This is a good way to promote that kind of positive thinking. We
can work the Inkscape and Gimp projects into this. *Everyone* comes
out a winner.

@Christoph/Florian: could we set-up a wiki page for this? I'd could
organize and develop the concept. We can draft rules and requirements.
As a spin-off benefit, we can develop formal specifications for
exactly what artwork we need. We can accumulate a list of means of
publicizing the competition, etc. It would be a great way to start
concretely learning from John and the Ubuntu guys.

OK, I'm ready to listen to all ideas against this. :-)
But I'm really hoping this is going to fire your imaginations, the way
it does mine. ;-)

David Nelson

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Thorsten Wilms Thorsten Wilms
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 16:25 +0800, David Nelson wrote:

> @TDF guys: I'd like to make one last plea for my idea of a logo/mascot
> competition (if you have clear arguments against it, I'll drop the
> subject).

Contests are devoid of the traditional client/designer relationship.
There tends to be no strategy, no briefing, no iterations.

A contest means that each participant invests their time, betting on
creating the one design that will be selected. Contest holders don't
value people's time and effort and you have to wonder if participants
value their own time and effort.

Contests do not speak of community and cooperation. It's everyone
against everyone else. Building on each others work is discouraged.

The risk of ending up with a "good" design that just lacks some
refinement is sometimes met with a refinement stage after the contest.
There you can marvel at design by committee in action.

You will often see lots of participants with little or no design
education and a panel of judges that have little to no clue what they
are actually looking for, either. Do you think BMW, Apple or Gucci would
hold a logo design contest?

http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/10/spec-work-and-contests-part-two.html
http://www.no-spec.com/


> 4) We can capitalize on the contact we've made with Ubuntu Artwork; if
> they're willing, they can "foster" us in this to some extent, and LibO
> participants can learn and develop a lot of good workflow methods and
> practices from an experienced and successful "big brother" project. It
> will also develop and strengthen this new relationship.

You are deluded regarding the scale, reach and success found in Ubuntu
Artwork (as a community project). I told you before, but apparently you
didn't listen. Does it help to show this are not just claims of some
random guy if I say I have been involved since 2007 and have been
sponsored to attend the Ubuntu Developer Summit 2 times? (Hmm, guess
that means nobody should ask me about successful team-building!)

Guess I sound overly negative, but I just want to avoid wrong
expectations.


On to the constructive part, what should happen:
First you need a good briefing. Even if you still do a contest, you
should have one. At the core is the mission statement of the entire
project. What are the goals? Based on that, you might formulate a
strategy. That's the foundation to decide on your tone and message. What
do you want to express with your visual design? Set priorities.

Without a good briefing, you have nothing to evaluate designs, expect
for the highly subjective "I like this" vs "but I like that".

Also see:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/design-in-collaborative-projects/

Developing such a briefing, as well as technical and legal requirements,
is a task best handled by a small group.

You could then select a single or maybe 2 or 3 designers, based on their
availability and past work.

Or, if you must, have a concept/drafting phase open for all. But instead
of turning it into a contest, it should be a designer's job distributed
on many shoulders.


--
Thorsten Wilms

thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/


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Gianluca Turconi-3 Gianluca Turconi-3
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

Il 15/11/2010 10.51, Thorsten Wilms ha scritto:
> You will often see lots of participants with little or no design
> education and a panel of judges that have little to no clue what they
> are actually looking for, either. Do you think BMW, Apple or Gucci would
> hold a logo design contest?

Folks, give to the participants some preventive guidelines! ;-)

Do you want a professional work? Write guidelines that exclude other
solutions.

What else are the governmental invitation for competitive bids in
whatever subject a government can be interested in? They are just
"contests with guidelines". And they work for whole states.

Contests worked well in the past and, IMO, other solutions without
currently available manpower are rather Utopian.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
--
Gianluca Turconi

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

Hi, :-)

Thorsten, I will let this thread sit and, hopefully, catch responses
for a couple of days, and then I'll write back with answers. Thank you
for having replied.

David Nelson

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John Baer John Baer
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by Thorsten Wilms
Hello everyone,

I added LibreOffice Artwork to Artwork Team project board (
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Tasks ) and created a draft specification to
provide guidance to our team (
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-5 ).

An outstanding issue is where submissions will be posted. Although your wiki
may be used for this purpose, I would like to suggest an alternative that
has work well for us.

The alternative is Flickr. Guest accounts are free and this site is tailored
for this purpose. A moderated community can be built to group submissions to
a project.

This relieves the wiki of the image storage burden permitting it to be used
for supporting documentation.

I can set this up if desired.

John


On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 4:51 AM, Thorsten Wilms <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 16:25 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
>
> > @TDF guys: I'd like to make one last plea for my idea of a logo/mascot
> > competition (if you have clear arguments against it, I'll drop the
> > subject).
>
> Contests are devoid of the traditional client/designer relationship.
> There tends to be no strategy, no briefing, no iterations.
>
> A contest means that each participant invests their time, betting on
> creating the one design that will be selected. Contest holders don't
> value people's time and effort and you have to wonder if participants
> value their own time and effort.
>
> Contests do not speak of community and cooperation. It's everyone
> against everyone else. Building on each others work is discouraged.
>
> The risk of ending up with a "good" design that just lacks some
> refinement is sometimes met with a refinement stage after the contest.
> There you can marvel at design by committee in action.
>
> You will often see lots of participants with little or no design
> education and a panel of judges that have little to no clue what they
> are actually looking for, either. Do you think BMW, Apple or Gucci would
> hold a logo design contest?
>
>
> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/10/spec-work-and-contests-part-two.html
> http://www.no-spec.com/
>
>
> > 4) We can capitalize on the contact we've made with Ubuntu Artwork; if
> > they're willing, they can "foster" us in this to some extent, and LibO
> > participants can learn and develop a lot of good workflow methods and
> > practices from an experienced and successful "big brother" project. It
> > will also develop and strengthen this new relationship.
>
> You are deluded regarding the scale, reach and success found in Ubuntu
> Artwork (as a community project). I told you before, but apparently you
> didn't listen. Does it help to show this are not just claims of some
> random guy if I say I have been involved since 2007 and have been
> sponsored to attend the Ubuntu Developer Summit 2 times? (Hmm, guess
> that means nobody should ask me about successful team-building!)
>
> Guess I sound overly negative, but I just want to avoid wrong
> expectations.
>
>
> On to the constructive part, what should happen:
> First you need a good briefing. Even if you still do a contest, you
> should have one. At the core is the mission statement of the entire
> project. What are the goals? Based on that, you might formulate a
> strategy. That's the foundation to decide on your tone and message. What
> do you want to express with your visual design? Set priorities.
>
> Without a good briefing, you have nothing to evaluate designs, expect
> for the highly subjective "I like this" vs "but I like that".
>
> Also see:
> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/design-in-collaborative-projects/
>
> Developing such a briefing, as well as technical and legal requirements,
> is a task best handled by a small group.
>
> You could then select a single or maybe 2 or 3 designers, based on their
> availability and past work.
>
> Or, if you must, have a concept/drafting phase open for all. But instead
> of turning it into a contest, it should be a designer's job distributed
> on many shoulders.
>
>
> --
> Thorsten Wilms
>
> thorwil's design for free software:
> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
>
>
> --
> E-mail to [hidden email]<marketing%[hidden email]>for instructions on how to unsubscribe
> List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/
> All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

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Toki Toki
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by Gianluca Turconi-3
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Hash: SHA1

On 11/15/2010 10:13 AM, Gianluca Turconi wrote:

> What else are the governmental invitation for competitive bids in whatever subject a government can be interested in? They are just "contests with guidelines". And they work for whole states.

Have you ever read the guidelines for government contracts for art work?
Have you viewed the submissions for those contests?
Have you seen the results of those contracts?

> Contests worked well in the past

A strong case can be made the the success or failure of LibO depends
_exclusively_ on the branding.  Branding that includes the logo. This is
not something that should be left to whim.

jonathon
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yorick yorick
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by davidnelson
On Monday 15 Nov 2010 21:25:24 David Nelson wrote:

> Hi list, :-)
>
> I'm really happy to have started up the contact with Ubuntu Artwork,
> and very grateful for the kind and positive response from John Baer,
> Shane Fagan and others.
>
> @TDF guys: I'd like to make one last plea for my idea of a logo/mascot
> competition (if you have clear arguments against it, I'll drop the
> subject). IMHO, the advantages of organizing a competition are this:
>
> 1) By sourcing ideas from the world at large, we can accumulate a
> large range of choices. It worked for OOo's Otto the seagull, it can
> work for us. From the little contact-building I've been doing, I can
> feel there's a large number of artists that would respond. We could
> really develop some superb branding.

Otto the Seagull was a different use case, it was aimed at kids getting
involved with their learning and the INGOTs initiative and kids love
competitions, but their attention ceases once the winners and losers are
defined.  It did nothing in terms of building the OOo Art community.  Sell the
community first then source the brand from the community in a collaborative
rather than competitive manner.

A collaborative community effort would come up with branding as superb as
anything sourced from a competition.  For a start, people involved with the
project understand the philosophies and the dynamics of the community and
particularly with this community, it's vast diversity  

>
> 2) It would be a good opportunity for publicizing the TDF/LibO
> project. I have lots of ideas and energy for this, and I'm sure we can
> get the Web buzzing about us again. It could be developed into a
> superb marketing opportunity.

A short term gain at the expense of long term health of the community.  

Instead let's publicise the fact that the LibreO art community is about to
take on a huge branding exercise and anyone wanting to get involved is
welcome.  It seems to me that much of your outreach activities have been doing
this in any case, just with a very narrow focus.

>
> 3) We can certainly attract quite a few new contributors to the LibO
> project, in artwork/marketing and in other areas. And we can
> demonstrate our commitment to openness, community-building and
> meritocracy.

Again history at OOo has shown us that this does not happen and in fact causes
the reverse.  When the community sees significant input into the project
handed off to people who have no history or connection to the project they
become frustrated and leave.  Competitions enhance a winners and losers
mentality.

By comparison promoting the Art project part of the community engages people
with the community which then collaborates on the branding and in the end the
LibreO Art community wins not just an individual,  

>
> 4) We can capitalize on the contact we've made with Ubuntu Artwork; if
> they're willing, they can "foster" us in this to some extent, and LibO
> participants can learn and develop a lot of good workflow methods and
> practices from an experienced and successful "big brother" project. It
> will also develop and strengthen this new relationship.


Ubuntu is small brother compared to where we have come from.  Ubuntu's
userbase is miniscule in comparison to OOo.  We can learn from OOo and the
mistakes made there.  Ubuntu makes the same mistakes as OOo did:  A corporate
design department doing all the significant design work and making all of the
decisions while feeding scraps to the community.  

>
> 5) By doing this in some kind of "association" (to be defined) with
> Ubuntu, there can be beneficial publicity for both projects. And for
> the FOSS world in general. FOSS projects need to work together, and we
> need to breakdown some of the "ideology" splits and barriers that have
> been such a negative brake to widespread adoption and development of
> FOSS. This is a good way to promote that kind of positive thinking. We
> can work the Inkscape and Gimp projects into this. *Everyone* comes
> out a winner.

The LibO/OOo/Go-ooo/Symphony universe does not suffer the "ideology split", we
all exist across multiple platforms.  It could in fact be argued that
following Ubuntu would entrench these  "ideology splits".

I agree to a point with the concept of outreaching to other Art communities,
such as the KDE (http://kde-look.org/) and Gnome (http://art.gnome.org/) art
projects to get more people involved in the LibreO Art project.
However a competition does nothing to foster this.  In a competition,
especially when it involves something as aesthetic and therefore subjective,
as Art, the end result is the majority are losers and there is only one winner
and it is not the community.

My perception is that you have a negative view of our Art community.  A real
positive view would say that the LibreO Art community has the strength to
deliver on a brilliant branding and has the distinct advantage of ownership
and being part of the wider LibreO community, certainly given the present
proposals on the wiki, it would seem that way.  


Cheers
GL

--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.

INGOTs Assessor Trainer
(International Grades in Open Technologies)
www.theingots.org

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by Thorsten Wilms
Hi Thorsten, hi David!

Before I start: I really appreciate any activity which strengthens our
community, improves collaboration and - not to forget - improves how our
users perceive our software and the community. Reading the initial idea
of the "art contest" reminds me of some of the darker sides of the
OpenOffice.org project. I won't go into details of the already written
thoughts - I think many people already expressed their experience with
that.

Moreover, I think Thorsten seconds the experiences we made ... and
although I don't want to doom any kind of (well prepared, smaller)
contest or artwork request, I think this is neither the right time and
the right approach.

(By the way, I tried to comment Thorsten's thoughts, but I failed,
because everything is important to me. So please bear with the TOFU for
that single time *g*).


To start with an additional thought: Only start with such an activity,
if you are sure that the outcome will be really used. This is something
we try to make our internal clients aware of: If one misses to do some
homework (or the information you need is just not there), and the
contest doesn't lead to something the organization had in mind, then
either a) the "spirit" will turn into strong disappointment, or, b) you
just pick "any" design proposal to please somebody (design proposal:
artwork, workflow design, software architecture).

So are we ready to work on the "Community Branding"? We (in terms of the
LibO community) are still about planning the homework, not even doing
it. The "Community Roadmap" is e.g. one of the TDF work items [1] -
deriving the "goals", "mission statement", "strategy" Thorsten talked
about. So it might help even more people, to start to work on that.

This is one of the reasons why I've asked for the branding roadmap [2]
some days ago - and some of you agreed to it (most people I know from
the time at OOo), as well as the Steering Committee. We are aware that
the community branding is very important, and this is the reason for
letting the current dust settle a bit.

The dust ... We miss some "tailored" communication framework at the
moment to make our communicate more efficient. Furthermore, we currently
try to suit the needs of our users with a decent LibreOffice 3.3
release. I know that some of the people that I consider essential here,
are unable to support a topic like "artwork (contest)" at the moment.

To sum it up, I don't think that we are lacking skilled and experienced
artists (with regard to OOo) - the more I am pleased to see some new
names and great proposals. But what I really miss are both background
information and a better communication framework. For the community
branding - however we will develop it - these are essential
prerequisites. So, personally, I'd like to focus on that first.

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Work_Items#general_Community
[2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Work_Items


Am Montag, den 15.11.2010, 10:51 +0100 schrieb Thorsten Wilms:

> On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 16:25 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
>
> > @TDF guys: I'd like to make one last plea for my idea of a logo/mascot
> > competition (if you have clear arguments against it, I'll drop the
> > subject).
>
> Contests are devoid of the traditional client/designer relationship.
> There tends to be no strategy, no briefing, no iterations.
>
> A contest means that each participant invests their time, betting on
> creating the one design that will be selected. Contest holders don't
> value people's time and effort and you have to wonder if participants
> value their own time and effort.
>
> Contests do not speak of community and cooperation. It's everyone
> against everyone else. Building on each others work is discouraged.
>
> The risk of ending up with a "good" design that just lacks some
> refinement is sometimes met with a refinement stage after the contest.
> There you can marvel at design by committee in action.
>
> You will often see lots of participants with little or no design
> education and a panel of judges that have little to no clue what they
> are actually looking for, either. Do you think BMW, Apple or Gucci would
> hold a logo design contest?
>
> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/10/spec-work-and-contests-part-two.html
> http://www.no-spec.com/
>
>
> > 4) We can capitalize on the contact we've made with Ubuntu Artwork; if
> > they're willing, they can "foster" us in this to some extent, and LibO
> > participants can learn and develop a lot of good workflow methods and
> > practices from an experienced and successful "big brother" project. It
> > will also develop and strengthen this new relationship.
>
> You are deluded regarding the scale, reach and success found in Ubuntu
> Artwork (as a community project). I told you before, but apparently you
> didn't listen. Does it help to show this are not just claims of some
> random guy if I say I have been involved since 2007 and have been
> sponsored to attend the Ubuntu Developer Summit 2 times? (Hmm, guess
> that means nobody should ask me about successful team-building!)
>
> Guess I sound overly negative, but I just want to avoid wrong
> expectations.
>
>
> On to the constructive part, what should happen:
> First you need a good briefing. Even if you still do a contest, you
> should have one. At the core is the mission statement of the entire
> project. What are the goals? Based on that, you might formulate a
> strategy. That's the foundation to decide on your tone and message. What
> do you want to express with your visual design? Set priorities.
>
> Without a good briefing, you have nothing to evaluate designs, expect
> for the highly subjective "I like this" vs "but I like that".
>
> Also see:
> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/design-in-collaborative-projects/
>
> Developing such a briefing, as well as technical and legal requirements,
> is a task best handled by a small group.
>
> You could then select a single or maybe 2 or 3 designers, based on their
> availability and past work.
>
> Or, if you must, have a concept/drafting phase open for all. But instead
> of turning it into a contest, it should be a designer's job distributed
> on many shoulders.


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bedipp bedipp
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by John Baer
Hi John, all

great to have you here!

I didn't manage to comment all the mails that I'd like to reply (not
even the mails I think they need a reply to avoid IMHO wrong
expectations and directions of actions), but I want to start with yours.

Perhaps you don't know me, having been one of the most active members in
the OOo Art Project, (as well on the mailing list as in the wiki and on
our website), I'd like to add some comments on the competition idea and
the way of possible interaction between LibreOffice and Linux
distributions in art and design.

John Baer schrieb:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I added LibreOffice Artwork to Artwork Team project board (
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Tasks ) and created a draft specification to
> provide guidance to our team (
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-5 ).

Thank you for this work!

There are some points that might need a comment (I don't understand what
"sponsor" means here, David has contacted you, but can't speak on behalf
of LibO/TDF), but it's great that we can work together on the same visuals.

Back in OOo times (sounds strange ;-)) I had to accept, that most of the
Linux distros modified the most graphical elements in OOo to fit their
visual design and branding language. Even if I understood, that Ubuntu
prefers a brown splash screen over a blue one, this didn't support
OpenOffice.org in his branding.

With a common effort between LibreOffice and the different distributions
chances become much higher to avoid major modifications to the
application's visual impression at the distro side - especially if we
start working together at a time, where the LibreOffice branding hasn't
been defined in details.

Based on what I wrote above, I don't think that a competition at this
time is the best way to collaborate.

We have to define the main goals of our branding, target groups we want
to address, rules about consistent and variable elements and so on.

Our team did agree on a roadmap leaving proposals, discussion and
decision on the final branding to the release of LibreOffice 3.5,
leaving enough time for preparing all the necessary stuff.
(http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/msg00848.html)

Until the release of LibreOffice 3.3 at least a few of us (I can't force
anybody to have the same priorities as myself) will focus on providing
marketing material and artwork based on the present "initial design" -
so I can't follow this topic with as much attention as it deserves...

>
> An outstanding issue is where submissions will be posted. Although your wiki
> may be used for this purpose, I would like to suggest an alternative that
> has work well for us.
>
> The alternative is Flickr. Guest accounts are free and this site is tailored
> for this purpose. A moderated community can be built to group submissions to
> a project.

My personal opinion on Flickr is not that positive (I don't like Yahoo
and the advertisements) - and as I gave up my yahoo account some years
ago I would have to create a new one.

But I can live with that if I'm the only one and the positive aspects of
using Flickr are important.

I don't know about the possibilities we get with Drupal - perhaps this
would allow us to keep the content on our pages and cause people to join
our community instead of joining another...
>
> This relieves the wiki of the image storage burden permitting it to be used
> for supporting documentation.

Our wiki is not only dedicated to documentation - it is our working area
in most community tasks (including design and artwork).
>
> I can set this up if desired.

Thanks for this proposal, but let's hear some more opinions.

Best regards

Bernhard

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yorick yorick
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
On Tuesday 16 Nov 2010 12:48:38 Christoph Noack wrote:

> Hi Thorsten, hi David!
>
> Before I start: I really appreciate any activity which strengthens our
> community, improves collaboration and - not to forget - improves how our
> users perceive our software and the community. Reading the initial idea
> of the "art contest" reminds me of some of the darker sides of the
> OpenOffice.org project. I won't go into details of the already written
> thoughts - I think many people already expressed their experience with
> that.
>
> Moreover, I think Thorsten seconds the experiences we made ... and
> although I don't want to doom any kind of (well prepared, smaller)
> contest or artwork request, I think this is neither the right time and
> the right approach.
>
> (By the way, I tried to comment Thorsten's thoughts, but I failed,
> because everything is important to me. So please bear with the TOFU for
> that single time *g*).
>
>
> To start with an additional thought: Only start with such an activity,
> if you are sure that the outcome will be really used. This is something
> we try to make our internal clients aware of: If one misses to do some
> homework (or the information you need is just not there), and the
> contest doesn't lead to something the organization had in mind, then
> either a) the "spirit" will turn into strong disappointment, or, b) you
> just pick "any" design proposal to please somebody (design proposal:
> artwork, workflow design, software architecture).
>
> So are we ready to work on the "Community Branding"? We (in terms of the
> LibO community) are still about planning the homework, not even doing
> it. The "Community Roadmap" is e.g. one of the TDF work items [1] -
> deriving the "goals", "mission statement", "strategy" Thorsten talked
> about. So it might help even more people, to start to work on that.
>
> This is one of the reasons why I've asked for the branding roadmap [2]
> some days ago - and some of you agreed to it (most people I know from
> the time at OOo), as well as the Steering Committee. We are aware that
> the community branding is very important, and this is the reason for
> letting the current dust settle a bit.
>
> The dust ... We miss some "tailored" communication framework at the
> moment to make our communicate more efficient. Furthermore, we currently
> try to suit the needs of our users with a decent LibreOffice 3.3
> release. I know that some of the people that I consider essential here,
> are unable to support a topic like "artwork (contest)" at the moment.
>
> To sum it up, I don't think that we are lacking skilled and experienced
> artists (with regard to OOo) - the more I am pleased to see some new
> names and great proposals. But what I really miss are both background
> information and a better communication framework. For the community
> branding - however we will develop it - these are essential
> prerequisites. So, personally, I'd like to focus on that first.

Big +1

>
> Cheers,
> Christoph

cheers
GL

>
> [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Work_Items#general_Community
> [2] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:ChristophNoack/Work_Items
>
> Am Montag, den 15.11.2010, 10:51 +0100 schrieb Thorsten Wilms:
> > On Mon, 2010-11-15 at 16:25 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
> > > @TDF guys: I'd like to make one last plea for my idea of a logo/mascot
> > > competition (if you have clear arguments against it, I'll drop the
> > > subject).
> >
> > Contests are devoid of the traditional client/designer relationship.
> > There tends to be no strategy, no briefing, no iterations.
> >
> > A contest means that each participant invests their time, betting on
> > creating the one design that will be selected. Contest holders don't
> > value people's time and effort and you have to wonder if participants
> > value their own time and effort.
> >
> > Contests do not speak of community and cooperation. It's everyone
> > against everyone else. Building on each others work is discouraged.
> >
> > The risk of ending up with a "good" design that just lacks some
> > refinement is sometimes met with a refinement stage after the contest.
> > There you can marvel at design by committee in action.
> >
> > You will often see lots of participants with little or no design
> > education and a panel of judges that have little to no clue what they
> > are actually looking for, either. Do you think BMW, Apple or Gucci would
> > hold a logo design contest?
> >
> > http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/10/spec-work-and-contests-part-two.
> > html http://www.no-spec.com/
> >
> > > 4) We can capitalize on the contact we've made with Ubuntu Artwork; if
> > > they're willing, they can "foster" us in this to some extent, and LibO
> > > participants can learn and develop a lot of good workflow methods and
> > > practices from an experienced and successful "big brother" project. It
> > > will also develop and strengthen this new relationship.
> >
> > You are deluded regarding the scale, reach and success found in Ubuntu
> > Artwork (as a community project). I told you before, but apparently you
> > didn't listen. Does it help to show this are not just claims of some
> > random guy if I say I have been involved since 2007 and have been
> > sponsored to attend the Ubuntu Developer Summit 2 times? (Hmm, guess
> > that means nobody should ask me about successful team-building!)
> >
> > Guess I sound overly negative, but I just want to avoid wrong
> > expectations.
> >
> >
> > On to the constructive part, what should happen:
> > First you need a good briefing. Even if you still do a contest, you
> > should have one. At the core is the mission statement of the entire
> > project. What are the goals? Based on that, you might formulate a
> > strategy. That's the foundation to decide on your tone and message. What
> > do you want to express with your visual design? Set priorities.
> >
> > Without a good briefing, you have nothing to evaluate designs, expect
> > for the highly subjective "I like this" vs "but I like that".
> >
> > Also see:
> > http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/design-in-collaborative-projects/
> >
> > Developing such a briefing, as well as technical and legal requirements,
> > is a task best handled by a small group.
> >
> > You could then select a single or maybe 2 or 3 designers, based on their
> > availability and past work.
> >
> > Or, if you must, have a concept/drafting phase open for all. But instead
> > of turning it into a contest, it should be a designer's job distributed
> > on many shoulders.

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John Baer John Baer
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by bedipp
 Bernhard,

Thank you for your kind comments.

A couple of follow up comments on Flickr.

I believe our community would agree with your comments as we are
investigating a better solution.

However, what I like about Flickr is this.

* It is available now and ready to use. :-)

* It has a large following which may aide getting the word out.

* It supports a variety of image formats and sizes. ( not svg :/ )

* It supports comments.

* It support attribution of license (CC)

The Ubuntu alternate wallpaper project has used this site for about three
releases {?} and has 5740 submissions.

With that said, we are transparent to the tools and are happy to contribute
in the manner of your choosing.

John

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Bernhard Dippold <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi John, all
>
> great to have you here!
>
> I didn't manage to comment all the mails that I'd like to reply (not even
> the mails I think they need a reply to avoid IMHO wrong expectations and
> directions of actions), but I want to start with yours.
>
> Perhaps you don't know me, having been one of the most active members in
> the OOo Art Project, (as well on the mailing list as in the wiki and on our
> website), I'd like to add some comments on the competition idea and the way
> of possible interaction between LibreOffice and Linux distributions in art
> and design.
>
> John Baer schrieb:
>
>  Hello everyone,
>>
>> I added LibreOffice Artwork to Artwork Team project board (
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Tasks ) and created a draft specification
>> to
>> provide guidance to our team (
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-5 ).
>>
>
> Thank you for this work!
>
> There are some points that might need a comment (I don't understand what
> "sponsor" means here, David has contacted you, but can't speak on behalf of
> LibO/TDF), but it's great that we can work together on the same visuals.
>
> Back in OOo times (sounds strange ;-)) I had to accept, that most of the
> Linux distros modified the most graphical elements in OOo to fit their
> visual design and branding language. Even if I understood, that Ubuntu
> prefers a brown splash screen over a blue one, this didn't support
> OpenOffice.org in his branding.
>
> With a common effort between LibreOffice and the different distributions
> chances become much higher to avoid major modifications to the application's
> visual impression at the distro side - especially if we start working
> together at a time, where the LibreOffice branding hasn't been defined in
> details.
>
> Based on what I wrote above, I don't think that a competition at this time
> is the best way to collaborate.
>
> We have to define the main goals of our branding, target groups we want to
> address, rules about consistent and variable elements and so on.
>
> Our team did agree on a roadmap leaving proposals, discussion and decision
> on the final branding to the release of LibreOffice 3.5, leaving enough time
> for preparing all the necessary stuff.
> (http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/msg00848.html)
>
> Until the release of LibreOffice 3.3 at least a few of us (I can't force
> anybody to have the same priorities as myself) will focus on providing
> marketing material and artwork based on the present "initial design" - so I
> can't follow this topic with as much attention as it deserves...
>
>
>
>> An outstanding issue is where submissions will be posted. Although your
>> wiki
>> may be used for this purpose, I would like to suggest an alternative that
>> has work well for us.
>>
>> The alternative is Flickr. Guest accounts are free and this site is
>> tailored
>> for this purpose. A moderated community can be built to group submissions
>> to
>> a project.
>>
>
> My personal opinion on Flickr is not that positive (I don't like Yahoo and
> the advertisements) - and as I gave up my yahoo account some years ago I
> would have to create a new one.
>
> But I can live with that if I'm the only one and the positive aspects of
> using Flickr are important.
>
> I don't know about the possibilities we get with Drupal - perhaps this
> would allow us to keep the content on our pages and cause people to join our
> community instead of joining another...
>
>
>> This relieves the wiki of the image storage burden permitting it to be
>> used
>> for supporting documentation.
>>
>
> Our wiki is not only dedicated to documentation - it is our working area in
> most community tasks (including design and artwork).
>
>
>> I can set this up if desired.
>>
>
> Thanks for this proposal, but let's hear some more opinions.
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard
>
> --
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>
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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by yorick
Hi, :-)

I've been watching this thread accumulate some responses to the idea
of a logo competition, and I also had responses in a couple of
off-list messages, so I guess one could say that I've been answered.
To summarize: "No - in any case, certainly not at this time. Maybe a
narrower process involving a small selection of designers, basically
within an in-project design team, possibly giving rise to a few
variants to be chosen from."

In any case, I'm glad there's fresh input from the people taking an
interest from Ubuntu Artwork. John and Thorsten both seem to favor an
organized and methodical approach [1] and, IMHO, that would be very
beneficial. I hope their involvement is going to be a regular,
on-going thing.

Anyway, I'll be looking forward to seeing what this all produces. :-)

David Nelson

[1] http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Briefing-td1909896.html#a1909896

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dhiren jani dhiren jani
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RE: Logo/mascot competition


Hi,

two recent contests that I saw produce good designs include
1) To create an international symbol for the Indian currency (Rupee) similar to the Dollar Mark $:
This was run in India and saw the creation of a new design, which has attracted strong opinions, both for and against, from everyone here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_rupee 

2) Artwork by an 11 year old in India for a Google4Doodle competition
I believe that this got more attention mainly because of the artist's capabilities.
But it did get strong publicity in India, a very large market for Google.
http://www.hindu.com/2010/11/14/stories/2010111461620100.htm

IMHO,
the logo for the product/brand should come from professional artists after a detailed discussion and analysis.
Once the logo is in place, and branding and marketing communications begin,
TDF could use a logo competition for publicity and marketing.
This competition could happen in the summer of 2011, when school is out.

thanks
Dhiren Jani
Gujarat, India

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:00:21 +0800
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Logo/mascot competition
> To: [hidden email]
>
> Hi, :-)
>
> I've been watching this thread accumulate some responses to the idea
> of a logo competition, and I also had responses in a couple of
> off-list messages, so I guess one could say that I've been answered.
> To summarize: "No - in any case, certainly not at this time. Maybe a
> narrower process involving a small selection of designers, basically
> within an in-project design team, possibly giving rise to a few
> variants to be chosen from."
>
> In any case, I'm glad there's fresh input from the people taking an
> interest from Ubuntu Artwork. John and Thorsten both seem to favor an
> organized and methodical approach [1] and, IMHO, that would be very
> beneficial. I hope their involvement is going to be a regular,
> on-going thing.
>
> Anyway, I'll be looking forward to seeing what this all produces. :-)
>
> David Nelson
>
> [1] http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Briefing-td1909896.html#a1909896
>
> --
> E-mail to [hidden email] for instructions on how to unsubscribe
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>
     
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Ian Lynch Ian Lynch
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

On 18 November 2010 03:47, dhiren jani <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> two recent contests that I saw produce good designs include
> 1) To create an international symbol for the Indian currency (Rupee)
> similar to the Dollar Mark $:
> This was run in India and saw the creation of a new design, which has
> attracted strong opinions, both for and against, from everyone here.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_rupee
>
> 2) Artwork by an 11 year old in India for a Google4Doodle competition
> I believe that this got more attention mainly because of the artist's
> capabilities.
> But it did get strong publicity in India, a very large market for Google.
> http://www.hindu.com/2010/11/14/stories/2010111461620100.htm
>
> IMHO,
> the logo for the product/brand should come from professional artists after
> a detailed discussion and analysis.
> Once the logo is in place, and branding and marketing communications begin,
> TDF could use a logo competition for publicity and marketing.
> This competition could happen in the summer of 2011, when school is out.
>
> thanks
> Dhiren Jani
> Gujarat, India
>
> > From: [hidden email]
> > Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:00:21 +0800
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Logo/mascot competition
> > To: [hidden email]
> >
> > Hi, :-)
> >
> > I've been watching this thread accumulate some responses to the idea
> > of a logo competition, and I also had responses in a couple of
> > off-list messages, so I guess one could say that I've been answered.
> > To summarize: "No - in any case, certainly not at this time. Maybe a
> > narrower process involving a small selection of designers, basically
> > within an in-project design team, possibly giving rise to a few
> > variants to be chosen from."
> >
> > In any case, I'm glad there's fresh input from the people taking an
> > interest from Ubuntu Artwork. John and Thorsten both seem to favor an
> > organized and methodical approach [1] and, IMHO, that would be very
> > beneficial. I hope their involvement is going to be a regular,
> > on-going thing.
> >
> > Anyway, I'll be looking forward to seeing what this all produces. :-)
> >
> > David Nelson
> >
> > [1]
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Briefing-td1909896.html#a1909896
> >
> > --
> > E-mail to [hidden email]<marketing%[hidden email]>for instructions on how to unsubscribe
> > List archives are available at
> http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/
> > All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot
> be deleted
> >
>
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> deleted
>

Just because you run a competition, it does not mean you have to adopt the
winners work. You could put iit alongside the professional choices and let
the community vote on it :-)
--
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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David,

David Nelson wrote on 2010-11-15 09.25:
> @Christoph/Florian: could we set-up a wiki page for this? I'd could
> organize and develop the concept. We can draft rules and requirements.
> As a spin-off benefit, we can develop formal specifications for
> exactly what artwork we need. We can accumulate a list of means of
> publicizing the competition, etc. It would be a great way to start
> concretely learning from John and the Ubuntu guys.

sure, feel free to use the wiki - I see no problems. :)

Florian

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

Hi, :-)

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 01:02, Florian Effenberger
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> David Nelson wrote on 2010-11-15 09.25:
>>
>> @Christoph/Florian: could we set-up a wiki page for this? I'd could
>> organize and develop the concept. We can draft rules and requirements.
>> As a spin-off benefit, we can develop formal specifications for
>> exactly what artwork we need. We can accumulate a list of means of
>> publicizing the competition, etc. It would be a great way to start
>> concretely learning from John and the Ubuntu guys.
>
> sure, feel free to use the wiki - I see no problems. :)
>
> Florian

I had thought that this thread was going to go dead after my last
post, but I see that it wasn't *quite* the case. But I'd like to see
whether investigating the organization of a logo/mascot competition
really has any uptake among the people reading this thread.

So my idea is that someone else should start the ball rolling, by
creating a wiki page and drafting an outline and a few ideas. If
somebody does that, then I'll certainly jump in and help develop the
initiative further, and maybe we can then ask our "visiting" friends
from Ubuntu Artwork to see what they can contribute, too.

Any takers? ;-)

David Nelson

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Thorsten Wilms Thorsten Wilms
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 19:45 +0800, David Nelson wrote:

> I had thought that this thread was going to go dead after my last
> post, but I see that it wasn't *quite* the case. But I'd like to see
> whether investigating the organization of a logo/mascot competition
> really has any uptake among the people reading this thread.

What happened to your "To summarize: 'No - in any case, certainly not at
this time. (...)'" from
http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/msg01244.html
?

This is getting really tiresome.


--
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thorwil's design for free software:
http://thorwil.wordpress.com/


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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

Hi, :-)

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 20:13, Thorsten Wilms <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is getting really tiresome.

Sorry, Thorsten. We'll all write to you for prior approval before
writing to the lists. :-D
There *were* actually some people who liked the competition idea. ;-)

David Nelson

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David,

David Nelson wrote on 2010-11-20 12.45:
> I had thought that this thread was going to go dead after my last
> post, but I see that it wasn't*quite*  the case. But I'd like to see
> whether investigating the organization of a logo/mascot competition
> really has any uptake among the people reading this thread.

sorry for the confusion. On the train ride back home yesterday, I worked
through about 150-200 unread e-mails. I just spotted the question
whether you can use the wiki, and sure, you can do so. :-)

Later on I read Bernhard's reply and realized what the thing is about.
IIRC, Bernhard suggested that at the moment, lots of things are going
on, and Bernhard proposes we wait a bit with a contest, as there are no
resources available.

I'll stick to Bernhards proposal, he is usually very well informed in
the art and design area.

Sorry for the confusion I've caused - too many things are on my desk, so
sometimes I miss the point. ;/

Florian

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Logo/mascot competition

Hi, :-)

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 20:39, Florian Effenberger
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just spotted the question whether you can use the wiki, and sure, you can
> do so. :-)

OK, thanks. And the lists, too? ;-)

David Nelson

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