Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

On 11/06/2011, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Topics (messages 201 through 202):
>
> [tdf-test] Re: Digest of [hidden email] issue 42 (188-200)
>       201 - e-letter <[hidden email]>
>       202 - Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
Note that the digest content after the last angle bracket disappears
(as consistently reported) from the reply text box. Cannot comment on
others' experience, only to report what I am experiencing. Don't know
what 'labs' refers to and cannot understand how gmail settings can
affect LO mailing list but not other mailing lists such as gnuplot, r,
clawsmail stated previously.

The other test scenario to consider is to subscribe to the digest-mode
of the other mailing lists cited and when a digest message is
received, to activate the 'reply' hyperlink in the gmail web interface
and compare the behaviour of the reply text box for these mailing
lists to the LO mailing lists.

As previously reported, these other mailing lists do not delete the
messages (referred to as "inline" by others; these seems strange
because by definition of the digest mode, all messages are requested
to be received as a single message. Sometimes, for large mailing lists
such as R, the message is clipped and has to be viewed in full via the
'show original' hyperlink).

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 12:54 PM, e-letter <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 11/06/2011, [hidden email]
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
> Note that the digest content after the last angle bracket disappears
> (as consistently reported) from the reply text box.

No, not consistently reported. You're the only one with this problem.
My gmail/broswer doesn't remove the content. So it is not a gmail
problem, it is not a problem with our lists. It is a problem specific
to your setup.

> Cannot comment on
> others' experience, only to report what I am experiencing. Don't know
> what 'labs' refers

Google Labs, optional stuff you can activate in gmail.

> to and cannot understand how gmail settings can
> affect LO mailing list but not other mailing lists such as gnuplot, r,
> clawsmail stated previously.

Again: I don't care, gmail works here, the list messages are
technically correct. So end of topic.

> The other test scenario to consider is to subscribe to the digest-mode
> of the other mailing lists cited and when a digest message is
> received, to activate the 'reply' hyperlink in the gmail web interface
> and compare the behaviour of the reply text box for these mailing
> lists to the LO mailing lists.

I don't need to subscribe to other lists to see that it works with our
lists, as previously demonstrated multiple times.

> As previously reported, these other mailing lists do not delete the
> messages (referred to as "inline" by others; these seems strange
> because by definition of the digest mode, all messages are requested
> to be received as a single message.

In one single message yes, but not in one single textbody. Multipart
messages are almost as old as mail itself. So nothing new here.

inline refers to gmails behaviour of displaying all messages in the
message text as if it was one single message, as opposed to having an
attachment/message list to view the individual messages.

But again:
* I cannot reproduce your problem with gmail
* You're the only one who complains
* Gmail is in general not suitable for digest mails as replying breaks
the thread
* The mails are technically correct, applying to the standard that is
more than 20 years old

ciao
Christian

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

In reply to this post by nabbler
Hi e-letter, *,

this is a reply to your mail out of the digest. Christian's assumption
is working here as expected: Each mail within the digest appears as
attachment, which is opened as a complete mail able to be answered,
forwarded, etc...

e-letter schrieb:

[..]

>The other test scenario to consider is to subscribe to the digest-mode
>of the other mailing lists cited and when a digest message is
>received,

A more simple way would be saving such a digest as file (type mbox if
there is a joice) zip it and upload it at any place, so the source code
can be examined to see how these digest mails are composed.

[..]

To second Christian: As other mailers are capable to handle "our"
digests as intended, it's most likely an issue of Your
configuration <-> preferences combination. As You are the single one
complaining, maybe the previously mentioned method ordering single mails
by number might be a workaround.

No hope the way digests are compiled will change, as they follow the
standard 100%. Probably You're lucky reporting a bug at gmail, so they
might fix it.


Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi e-letter, *,
>
> this is a reply to your mail out of the digest. Christian's assumption
> is working here as expected: Each mail within the digest appears as
> attachment, which is opened as a complete mail able to be answered,
> forwarded, etc...
>

This does not occur with gmail; all messages are _not_ received as
attachments but as a single message

> e-letter schrieb:
>
> [..]
>
>>The other test scenario to consider is to subscribe to the digest-mode
>>of the other mailing lists cited and when a digest message is
>>received,
>
> A more simple way would be saving such a digest as file (type mbox if
> there is a joice) zip it and upload it at any place, so the source code
> can be examined to see how these digest mails are composed.
>
 I don't know how to do as instructed; instead messages were copied
from the gmail web interface hyperlink 'show original' to the pastebin
web site as described in previous messages. Trying to send the
original mail message causes an error, again as shown in previous
messages.

> [..]
>
> To second Christian: As other mailers are capable to handle "our"
> digests as intended, it's most likely an issue of Your
> configuration <-> preferences combination. As You are the single one
> complaining, maybe the previously mentioned method ordering single mails
> by number might be a workaround.

Just done that with this message. A bit tedious having to wait for the
reply, but works. I had to read your previous instructions again;
would suggest the following text (or similar) is added to all
digest-mode message signatures/welcome messages:

"To reply to individual messages within a digest-mode message, use the
following syntax of the e-mail recipient address:
'mailinglistname'+get-'digest-modemessagenumber'@..."

>
> No hope the way digests are compiled will change, as they follow the
> standard 100%. Probably You're lucky reporting a bug at gmail, so they
> might fix it.
>

From gmail view, I would expect them to say "mailing list managers for
R, gnuplot, claws-mail, imagemagick, etc do not delete the digest-mode
message content when the reply hyperlink is activated. We suggest LO
programmers investigate their choice of mailing list manager". If LO
and R use _exactly_ the _same_ mailing list manager and I see this
error occur only in one but not _both_ of digest-mode messages
received, it is logical to conclude that the source of the error would
be some personal configuration of the gmail web interface. Noone at LO
has indicated the type of mailing list manager used in order to make a
comparison with other mailing lists and therefore it is a false
conclusion to claim LO mailing list manager is 100 % perfect (didn't
know such perfect software existed, but that is another discussion).

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

Hi for the last time in this topic.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:28 AM, e-letter <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> From gmail view, I would expect them to say "mailing list managers for
> R, gnuplot, claws-mail, imagemagick, etc do not delete the digest-mode
> message content when the reply hyperlink is activated. We suggest LO
> programmers investigate their choice of mailing list manager".

Again this is bullshit. Sorry, no nice words anymore as I've written
the same stuff often enough now.
* There is nothing wrong with the digests
* GMail does not strip anything when I reply in gmail.

Whatever the problem, it is at your end.
It definitely is nothing wrong with the messages sent from the LO
list. And it is not a general problem with gmail either. At least I
did never had a problem, not even with the digest-message of this list
you used as example.

> Noone at LO
> has indicated the type of mailing list manager used

mlmmj - but this has been written already in numerous places, and you
could just have asked for it.

> in order to make a
> comparison with other mailing lists and therefore it is a false
> conclusion to claim LO mailing list manager is 100 % perfect (didn't
> know such perfect software existed, but that is another discussion).

Let gmail display the original source, then you can inspect the message.
Should you be able to spot the slightest technical failure, I promise
I'll work my ass off to fix it.

But again: There is none.

ciao
Christian

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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

On 13/06/2011, Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi for the last time in this topic.
>
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:28 AM, e-letter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From gmail view, I would expect them to say "mailing list managers for
>> R, gnuplot, claws-mail, imagemagick, etc do not delete the digest-mode
>> message content when the reply hyperlink is activated. We suggest LO
>> programmers investigate their choice of mailing list manager".
>
> Again this is bullshit. Sorry, no nice words anymore as I've written
> the same stuff often enough now.
> * There is nothing wrong with the digests
> * GMail does not strip anything when I reply in gmail.

It is probably more accurate for you to say that you and those you
have asked have not experienced this behaviour.

>
> Whatever the problem, it is at your end.
> It definitely is nothing wrong with the messages sent from the LO
> list. And it is not a general problem with gmail either. At least I
> did never had a problem, not even with the digest-message of this list
> you used as example.
>
>> Noone at LO
>> has indicated the type of mailing list manager used
>
> mlmmj - but this has been written already in numerous places, and you
> could just have asked for it.
>

For example, claws-mail uses 'mailman', this indicates that different
mailing list management software will operate differently.

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

In reply to this post by nabbler
Hi e-letter, *,

e-letter schrieb:
> On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>> Hi e-letter, *,

>> this is a reply to your mail out of the digest. Christian's
>> assumption is working here as expected: Each mail within the digest
>> appears as attachment, which is opened as a complete mail able to be
>> answered, forwarded, etc...

> This does not occur with gmail; all messages are _not_ received as
> attachments but as a single message

So *GMAIL IS BUGGY*.
 
>> e-letter schrieb:

[..]

>>> The other test scenario to consider is to subscribe to the
>>> digest-mode of the other mailing lists cited and when a digest
>>> message is received,

>> A more simple way would be saving such a digest as file (type mbox
>> if there is a joice) zip it and upload it at any place, so the
>> source code can be examined to see how these digest mails are
>> composed.

> I don't know how to do as instructed;

puh! "Save as" not known/feasable? Well, so then bad luck!

You want us to serve solving Your problem but don't want to serve us
with information needed for that, considering our preferences - thing
You claim strongly for Yourself?

> instead messages were copied from the gmail web interface hyperlink
> 'show original' to the pastebin web site as described in previous
> messages. Trying to send the original mail message causes an error,
> again as shown in previous messages.

So choose a tool that fit Your needs. It's simple like that!

[..]

>> To second Christian: As other mailers are capable to handle "our"
>> digests as intended, it's most likely an issue of Your
>> configuration <-> preferences combination. As You are the single one
>> complaining, maybe the previously mentioned method ordering single
>> mails by number might be a workaround.

> Just done that with this message.

confirmed: Thread is kept well.

> A bit tedious having to wait for the reply, but works.

Cool! So You can keep Your preferences and have to pay little price.

> I had to read your previous instructions again;
> would suggest the following text (or similar) is added to all
> digest-mode message signatures/welcome messages:

> "To reply to individual messages within a digest-mode message, use the
> following syntax of the e-mail recipient address:
> 'mailinglistname'+get-'digest-modemessagenumber'@..."

No good idea, because posting a solution for a problem noone faces
generates confusion at best.

>> No hope the way digests are compiled will change, as they follow the
>> standard 100%. Probably You're lucky reporting a bug at gmail, so
>> they might fix it.

> From gmail view, I would expect them to say "mailing list managers for
> R, gnuplot, claws-mail, imagemagick, etc do not delete the digest-mode
> message content when the reply hyperlink is activated. We suggest LO
> programmers investigate their choice of mailing list manager". If LO
> and R use _exactly_ the _same_ mailing list manager and I see this
> error occur only in one but not _both_ of digest-mode messages
> received, it is logical to conclude that the source of the error would
> be some personal configuration of the gmail web interface. Noone at LO
> has indicated the type of mailing list manager used in order to make a
> comparison with other mailing lists and therefore it is a false
> conclusion to claim LO mailing list manager is 100 % perfect (didn't
> know such perfect software existed, but that is another discussion).

Much text for hot air! I'd be happy to read *the answer from gmail*
instead of *Your assumption of their answer*.


*head-shaking*
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

In reply to this post by nabbler
Hi e-letter, *,

e-letter schrieb:
> On 13/06/2011, Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 10:28 AM, e-letter <[hidden email]> wrote:

[.. XX iterations ..]

>>> Noone at LO
>>> has indicated the type of mailing list manager used

>> mlmmj - but this has been written already in numerous places, and
>> you could just have asked for it.

> For example, claws-mail uses 'mailman', this indicates that different
> mailing list management software will operate differently.

So if You prefer the mailinglist software over the mailinglist content
just choose Your mailinglist subscriptions following this criterion.

All I notice is that You are busy with words but not busy with
cooperation while achiving solution of *YOUR* problem.

You provide desired information only after long discussions why you
don't owe that and instead of acting you once more discuss.

I spent now about 6 - 8 hours on solving *YOUR* problem barely receiving
cooperation - lessons instead - so you are on Your own now.

Good luck
Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

In reply to this post by Friedrich Strohmaier
Hi Friedrich, *,

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> e-letter schrieb:
>> On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> This does not occur with gmail; all messages are _not_ received as
>> attachments but as a single message
>
> So *GMAIL IS BUGGY*.

No, the description is wrong of course the messages are /received/ as
attachments, they are received as everybody else does. There are no
special messages crafted for gmail users, the original source is the
same for all.
But gmail /*displays*/ them as a single message. Whether you consider
this as a bug or feature is up to you :-)

> You want us to serve solving Your problem but don't want to serve us
> with information needed for that, considering our preferences - thing
> You claim strongly for Yourself?

I'm a gmail user as well, And I cannot reproduce the problem. So there
is no point in requesting the original mail anymore. When I reply to a
digest mail, the whole digest mail is quoted, all is included. Nothing
is missing as e-letter repots. I have my preferences set to
plain-text, not rich-text. That is the only default setting that I can
think of that would affect the reply/text-entry box.

> [...]
>>> To second Christian: As other mailers are capable to handle "our"
>>> digests as intended, it's most likely an issue of Your
>>> configuration <-> preferences combination. As You are the single one
>>> complaining, maybe the previously mentioned method ordering single
>>> mails by number might be a workaround.
>
>> Just done that with this message.
>
> confirmed: Thread is kept well.

And this is the only way of not breaking the thread with gmail. That's
the other reason why it is pointless to try to "fix" something here
that is not broken on our end.

>> "To reply to individual messages within a digest-mode message, use the
>> following syntax of the e-mail recipient address:
>> 'mailinglistname'+get-'digest-modemessagenumber'@..."
>
> No good idea, because posting a solution for a problem noone faces
> generates confusion at best.

Yes, and as written: I cannot see any reason to subscribe to a digest
version when using gmail. I am subscribed to two digests - one is
gnome-announce that I've been subscribed to before using gmail, and
then never bothered to change my subscription, but that doesn't matter
as this is a list where I only receive stuff, never post myself, and
the other one is the test-list that I subscribed to in order to check
this problem-report.

Using gmail for mailinglists were you reply to is anti-social as
written before, as you don't have a chance of keeping the thread. You
will always break the thread on reply, messing the lists up for
everyone, those who read it later in one of the archives, anyone who
uses a threaded reader (and that also includes gmail, where "threaded"
is more like "collected by summary).

ciao
Christian

PS: I very much dislike the change in focus/scrolling behaviour gmail
introduced in the last weeks (index view jumps to where you scrolled
to while reading, when you scroll down to read a message and get back
to the index, you are at the bottom/scrolled down view of the index,
previously it restored the view of the index independend where you
were when reading.
I mention this as a prove that I'm really using gmail to read my mail,
and I'm sure e-letter knows what I'm talking about here)

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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

In reply to this post by Friedrich Strohmaier
On 15/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi e-letter, *,
>
> e-letter schrieb:
>> On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>> Hi e-letter, *,
>
>>> this is a reply to your mail out of the digest. Christian's
>>> assumption is working here as expected: Each mail within the digest
>>> appears as attachment, which is opened as a complete mail able to be
>>> answered, forwarded, etc...
>
>> This does not occur with gmail; all messages are _not_ received as
>> attachments but as a single message
>
> So *GMAIL IS BUGGY*.
>
>>> e-letter schrieb:
>
> [..]
>
>>>> The other test scenario to consider is to subscribe to the
>>>> digest-mode of the other mailing lists cited and when a digest
>>>> message is received,
>
>>> A more simple way would be saving such a digest as file (type mbox
>>> if there is a joice) zip it and upload it at any place, so the
>>> source code can be examined to see how these digest mails are
>>> composed.
>
>> I don't know how to do as instructed;
>
> puh! "Save as" not known/feasable? Well, so then bad luck!
>
> You want us to serve solving Your problem but don't want to serve us
> with information needed for that, considering our preferences - thing
> You claim strongly for Yourself?
>

Initial reading, that I had to perform the action to type (as a verb)
mbox, then convert to zip (which create a zip of a single mail
message?) and upload to where, for whom?

The nearest action I could understand was to upload to pastebin, which
I had already performed.

>> instead messages were copied from the gmail web interface hyperlink
>> 'show original' to the pastebin web site as described in previous
>> messages. Trying to send the original mail message causes an error,
>> again as shown in previous messages.
>
> So choose a tool that fit Your needs. It's simple like that!

Please read again my text: I reported that my attempt to send the
message caused an error response by the server, how is it possible to
choose a different tool to send the message!!

>
> [..]
>
>>> To second Christian: As other mailers are capable to handle "our"
>>> digests as intended, it's most likely an issue of Your
>>> configuration <-> preferences combination. As You are the single one
>>> complaining, maybe the previously mentioned method ordering single
>>> mails by number might be a workaround.
>
>> Just done that with this message.
>
> confirmed: Thread is kept well.
>
>> A bit tedious having to wait for the reply, but works.
>
> Cool! So You can keep Your preferences and have to pay little price.
>
>> I had to read your previous instructions again;
>> would suggest the following text (or similar) is added to all
>> digest-mode message signatures/welcome messages:
>
>> "To reply to individual messages within a digest-mode message, use the
>> following syntax of the e-mail recipient address:
>> 'mailinglistname'+get-'digest-modemessagenumber'@..."
>
> No good idea, because posting a solution for a problem noone faces
> generates confusion at best.
>

In my opinion, the text proposed should be relevant _only_ to those
that selected to receive messages in digest mode; other subscribers
would surely ignore this text?!

>>> No hope the way digests are compiled will change, as they follow the
>>> standard 100%. Probably You're lucky reporting a bug at gmail, so
>>> they might fix it.
>
>> From gmail view, I would expect them to say "mailing list managers for
>> R, gnuplot, claws-mail, imagemagick, etc do not delete the digest-mode
>> message content when the reply hyperlink is activated. We suggest LO
>> programmers investigate their choice of mailing list manager". If LO
>> and R use _exactly_ the _same_ mailing list manager and I see this
>> error occur only in one but not _both_ of digest-mode messages
>> received, it is logical to conclude that the source of the error would
>> be some personal configuration of the gmail web interface. Noone at LO
>> has indicated the type of mailing list manager used in order to make a
>> comparison with other mailing lists and therefore it is a false
>> conclusion to claim LO mailing list manager is 100 % perfect (didn't
>> know such perfect software existed, but that is another discussion).
>
> Much text for hot air! I'd be happy to read *the answer from gmail*
> instead of *Your assumption of their answer*.
>

It is your choice (not) to send the question to gmail.

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nabbler nabbler
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
On 15/06/2011, Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Friedrich, *,
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> e-letter schrieb:
>>> On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This does not occur with gmail; all messages are _not_ received as
>>> attachments but as a single message
>>
>> So *GMAIL IS BUGGY*.
>
> No, the description is wrong of course the messages are /received/ as
> attachments, they are received as everybody else does. There are no
> special messages crafted for gmail users, the original source is the
> same for all.
> But gmail /*displays*/ them as a single message. Whether you consider
> this as a bug or feature is up to you :-)
>

So gmail is breaking the (rfc?) convention? That makes this inline
display behaviour a bug, in my opinion but probably a feature by
others.

>> You want us to serve solving Your problem but don't want to serve us
>> with information needed for that, considering our preferences - thing
>> You claim strongly for Yourself?
>
> I'm a gmail user as well, And I cannot reproduce the problem. So there
> is no point in requesting the original mail anymore. When I reply to a
> digest mail, the whole digest mail is quoted, all is included. Nothing
> is missing as e-letter repots. I have my preferences set to
> plain-text, not rich-text. That is the only default setting that I can
> think of that would affect the reply/text-entry box.
>

In my general settings, I cannot see an option to choose text formats,
but it seems to be plain text since there are no formatting options in
my web-mail interface. The only setting I have changed is to use utf8
encoding for sent messages.

Interestingly, this message shows the original message content after
activating the reply hyperlink; looking at the header and comparing
with the digest mode message header, maybe the from address being
test... is the cause.

>> [...]
>>>> To second Christian: As other mailers are capable to handle "our"
>>>> digests as intended, it's most likely an issue of Your
>>>> configuration <-> preferences combination. As You are the single one
>>>> complaining, maybe the previously mentioned method ordering single
>>>> mails by number might be a workaround.
>>
>>> Just done that with this message.
>>
>> confirmed: Thread is kept well.
>
> And this is the only way of not breaking the thread with gmail. That's
> the other reason why it is pointless to try to "fix" something here
> that is not broken on our end.
>

In other mailing lists the thread is maintained if the subject text is
copied, but may be broken if there is a small change in space
characters.

>>> "To reply to individual messages within a digest-mode message, use the
>>> following syntax of the e-mail recipient address:
>>> 'mailinglistname'+get-'digest-modemessagenumber'@..."
>>
>> No good idea, because posting a solution for a problem noone faces
>> generates confusion at best.
>
> Yes, and as written: I cannot see any reason to subscribe to a digest
> version when using gmail. I am subscribed to two digests - one is
> gnome-announce that I've been subscribed to before using gmail, and
> then never bothered to change my subscription, but that doesn't matter
> as this is a list where I only receive stuff, never post myself, and
> the other one is the test-list that I subscribed to in order to check
> this problem-report.
>
> Using gmail for mailinglists were you reply to is anti-social as
> written before, as you don't have a chance of keeping the thread. You
> will always break the thread on reply, messing the lists up for
> everyone, those who read it later in one of the archives, anyone who
> uses a threaded reader (and that also includes gmail, where "threaded"
> is more like "collected by summary).
>

Isn't relying on threads also weak when threads become long and may
continue beyond the normal 1 month categories of mail archives?

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

Hi again,...

On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 2:50 PM, e-letter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15/06/2011, Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> e-letter schrieb:
>>>> On 12/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This does not occur with gmail; all messages are _not_ received as
>>>> attachments but as a single message
>>>
>>> So *GMAIL IS BUGGY*.
>>
>> No, the description is wrong of course the messages are /received/ as
>> attachments, they are received as everybody else does. There are no
>> special messages crafted for gmail users, the original source is the
>> same for all.
>> But gmail /*displays*/ them as a single message. Whether you consider
>> this as a bug or feature is up to you :-)
>
> So gmail is breaking the (rfc?) convention? That makes this inline
> display behaviour a bug, in my opinion but probably a feature by
> others.

No. Read again. How it displays them is up to gmail. And whether or
not you consider this a bug of a feature is a matter of taste.

What definitely /IS/ a bug/lacking functionality though is the
possibility to treat the seperate messages as seperate, as would be
needed to properly reply in order to not break the thread.

> Interestingly, this message shows the original message content after
> activating the reply hyperlink; looking at the header and comparing
> with the digest mode message header, maybe the from address being
> test... is the cause.

No - you cited another one from test previously that according to your
description showed the problem.

>>> [request single message before replying]
>> And this is the only way of not breaking the thread with gmail. That's
>> the other reason why it is pointless to try to "fix" something here
>> that is not broken on our end.
>
> In other mailing lists the thread is maintained if the subject text is
> copied, but may be broken if there is a small change in space
> characters.

No, it is not. It is for *you*, but only you, but not for those who
actually track threads by the proper headers.

When changing subject in gmail, it will always throw away all
References and In-Reply-to headers.

>> Using gmail for mailinglists were you reply to is anti-social as
>> written before, as you don't have a chance of keeping the thread. You
>> will always break the thread on reply, messing the lists up for
>> everyone, those who read it later in one of the archives, anyone who
>> uses a threaded reader (and that also includes gmail, where "threaded"
>> is more like "collected by summary).
>
> Isn't relying on threads also weak when threads become long and may
> continue beyond the normal 1 month categories of mail archives?

That's the point of keeping the thread, to be able to continue reading it.
And mail-archives are out of the question here, how they handle
threading and display is up to them. 1month categories does men
absolutely /nothing/ to gmane or mail-archive.com

The month-categorization by classic archives just is a help for the
reader to be able to quickly locate a message when the user knows when
the mail was written. But with search becoming more powerful (and
"affordable" in terms of disk-space requirements and computing power
on the server that hosts the archives), this is no longer a real
issue.

But even if it was: Those who take part in the discussion are
affected, not only the archives.

ciao
Christian

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Friedrich Strohmaier Friedrich Strohmaier
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Re: Digest of test@documentfoundation.org issue 43 (201-202)

In reply to this post by nabbler
Hi e-letter, *,

e-letter schrieb:
> On 15/06/2011, Friedrich Strohmaier <[hidden email]>
wrote:

[..]

>> puh! "Save as" not known/feasable? Well, so then bad luck!

>> You want us to serve solving Your problem but don't want to serve us
>> with information needed for that, considering our preferences -
>> thing You claim strongly for Yourself?

> Initial reading, that I had to perform the action to type (as a verb)
> mbox, then convert to zip (which create a zip of a single mail
> message?)

no, of a complete digest of one of those mailinglists where threading
apparently works.

> and upload to where,

There are spaces in the web to upload files, but well..

> for whom?

for me. Via upload or as attachment of a private mail because this list
- as almost all public mailing lists - does strip any kind of
attachment.

> The nearest action I could understand was to upload to pastebin, which
> I had already performed.

Yes. But my intention was to get a package easily to import in my mail
software to examine it there..

[..]

>> So choose a tool that fit Your needs. It's simple like that!

> Please read again my text: I reported that my attempt to send the
> message caused an error response by the server, how is it possible to
> choose a different tool to send the message!!

Regarding proper mails at tdf/libreoffice mailinglists?

Simple solution:
subscribe normal subscription (instead of digest) and sort mails in a
separate folder using filters. This way You have them well sorted in
threads and answering works smoothly without hassles.

Other solution:
Install mail software (thunderbird, ... ) on Your computer and get mails
locally there.

One more:
install a nntp reader (thunderbird ...) on your computer and get news
from gmane.org

[..]

>>> "To reply to individual messages within a digest-mode message, use
>>> the following syntax of the e-mail recipient address:
>>> 'mailinglistname'+get-'digest-modemessagenumber'@..."

>> No good idea, because posting a solution for a problem noone faces
>> generates confusion at best.

> In my opinion, the text proposed should be relevant _only_ to those
> that selected to receive messages in digest mode; other subscribers
> would surely ignore this text?!

It does affect *only* gmail users ordering digest mails. All apart of
those don't have troubles and thus would be confused.

>>>> No hope the way digests are compiled will change, as they follow
>>>> the standard 100%. Probably You're lucky reporting a bug at gmail,
>>>> so they might fix it.

>>> From gmail view, I would expect them to say "mailing list managers
>>> for R, gnuplot, claws-mail, imagemagick, etc do not delete the
>>> digest-mode message content when the reply hyperlink is activated.
>>> We suggest LO programmers investigate their choice of mailing list
>>> manager".

[..]

>> Much text for hot air! I'd be happy to read *the answer from gmail*
>> instead of *Your assumption of their answer*.

> It is your choice (not) to send the question to gmail.

Ah *I* should do to solve *Your* problem? Interesting (but meanwhile
old) news.

It's Your choice to live with their product and related problems.

Although suffering from this crap (by giving hours and hours support for
free) I've no reason to complain at google, as I don't use their
product.

I'm not the right person for that purpose, because I can't commucate if
they need specific information.

Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images



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