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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hello all,

so, there was a quite a long silence...

In the meantime, I've started a Whiteboard on a redesign for the
conditional formatting feature in Calc at:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Conditional_Formatting

In the end, I decided that while I generally liked my first draft
better, it adding sorting to it in the future wouldn't work and also,
it wouldn't be able to scale well to many conditions. Thus, I kept the
approach I had originally...


Markus's aim is/was to implement this change in the 3.6 time frame
which means there's not so much time left... If you have criticism/own
proposals, it's best to speak up now.

(If you're reading this on the design list, the prior discussion on
the ux-advise list migth make for a good read:
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-conditional-format-dialog-td3724185.html
. Also, note that you'll have to use reply to all since the people on
CC aren't subscribed to the design list.)

Regards,
Astron.

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi Pierre,


> 1. For the record: the ability to create a new style is one of the items
> of the list of styles.

Yes, that's the intention.


> 2. I understand that we will defer the option of sorting conditions.
> However I disagree with the proposition "the Add button Appended to the last condition".
> - It adds the risks and constraints mentioned
> - It does not allow to insert a condition. The user has to delete and recreate all of
> the following to insert a new one.
>
> My proposal (with your mockup) would be to have an Add button (left to Remove button)
> for each condition. These two buttons would be located below the preview area.
> - Click Add to add a condition after the selected one.
> - Insert becomes possible
> - Defer the sorting feature is less penalizing

We never had sorting, so at least that's not a regression.
I know it's a somewhat basic feature to leave out, but here's hoping
that there will be someone to implements the basics for nice drag-drop
stuff within the whole app (i. e. a reliable animation framework to
show status changes; and of course drag and drop if that's not already
in place).

The problem with an Add button inside every condition is one of UI
hierarchy. All current buttons within the condition field act directly
upon the condition, but Add would not.
Also, I don't believe there should be so much need to add conditions
at arbitrary places in the list, so, no, I don't feel like adding
that...


> - No risk of hidden button

The button is designed this way, so the newcomer instantly knows where
to click to add a condition (ease the learning curve). It comes with a
few drawbacks, but I also described on the wiki how the major ones can
be mitigated.


> 3. It is crucial to know what cell is the current one when defining a "formula"
> condition. "Area" should include "Current Cell". Space is not an issue here
> (ability to hide the area)

Oh, sorry I forgot about Regina's and your criticism... I'll update
the mockup to include "Origin Cell" (which seemed to be the most
fitting name to me, but please do comment!) in the next minutes.


> 4. My proposal mockup was a first attempt in the discussion. It included the ability
> to disable (not delete) a condition. While this may be useful, especially for testing,
> this would require changes since this property is not currently available.
> I propose not to retain this proposal.

Okay, this matches up with what I thought. :)


Astron.

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Markus Mohrhard Markus Mohrhard
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hey Stefan, design list,

sorry that it took me a bit longer than expected to respond.

As already discussed in Hamburg I'm happy with the current proposal
but I have one point that I only noticed today. Would it be possible
to add a concept for data bars and color scales? We already have a
simple proof of concept for data bars from Michael and I would like to
implement color scales at least for 3.7. I think it is better if we
think about a dialog that contains a concept for these two already now
otherwise we might redesign the dialog in some months.

Please keep me in cc because I'm not subscribed to the design list.

Regards,
Markus

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

 Markus,


> ... Would it be possible to add a concept for data bars and color scales?
> We already have a simple proof of concept for data bars from Michael and I
> would like to implement color scales at least for 3.7. I think it is better
> if we think about a dialog that contains a concept for these two already
> now otherwise we might redesign the dialog in some months.
>

what are these data bars and color scales you speak of? could you like to
the concept for them if you have one?

Andrew

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hi Andrew,

> what are these data bars and color scales you speak of? could you like to the concept for them if you have one?

take a look here:
http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/microsoft-excel-2010-data-bar/

and here:

http://www.addictivetips.com/microsoft-office/change-color-cells-in-excel-2010-using-color-scales/

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

In reply to this post by Markus Mohrhard
Hi Markus,

> As already discussed in Hamburg I'm happy with the current proposal
> but I have one point that I only noticed today. Would it be possible
> to add a concept for data bars and color scales?

Possible, certainly. I think, in the combo box "Cell value is" we'd
need a third choice like "(Apply to) All values". Then, you'd get a
new combo box replacing "equal to" and "Enter value". In this combo
box, you could then choose "Color Scale", "Data Bars" (and possibly
"Icon Sets").

So far, so good... However, now there would be a myriad of elements
that we'd need to fit somewhere, for colour scales e.g.:
* number of colours (Excel offers two or three – which makes sense)
* type (percentage, absolute value etc.), value, colour for minimum
* type (percentage, absolute value etc.), value, colour for maximum
* type (percentage, absolute value etc.), value, colour for midpoint
(only in the case of a three colour scale)

Data bars in Excel offer even more customisability...

What I am getting at, is: it should be no problem to fit the data bars
and colour scales into the dialogue, but for the detailed
configuration, we'd need two somewhat ugly new dialogues...


> We already have a
> simple proof of concept for data bars from Michael and I would like to
> implement color scales at least for 3.7.

Cool.

Regards,
Astron.

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hello Markus,

> Old planning has been moved a bit. Color scales and maybe data bars
> will make it into 3.6. Is there a good way to integrate it into the
> conditional formatting dialog?

I am working on it.
Meanwhile, there's an implementation detail that I would find useful to know:
how are data bars and colour scales implemented in ODF? Are there
styles for them [1]? Would styles make sense from your perspective?
Actually, are data bars a specced ODF feature, or is this an extension
of the spec?

Astron.


[1] I guess there is a difference between having presets [2] and
styles, which is mostly that the preset is stored within the
application configuration file, but style would be embedded in the
spreadsheet itself.

[2] Presets seem vital to me, else we'd have to confront _every_ user
with more configuration than anyone we should want.

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Michael Stahl-2 Michael Stahl-2
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Re: conditional format dialog

On 11/05/12 15:57, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:
> Meanwhile, there's an implementation detail that I would find useful to know:
> how are data bars and colour scales implemented in ODF? Are there
> styles for them [1]? Would styles make sense from your perspective?
> Actually, are data bars a specced ODF feature, or is this an extension
> of the spec?

see thread "How to add color scales to ODF?":

http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.devel/29440

and whether to use styles or not is what the thread is mainly about :)


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Markus Mohrhard Markus Mohrhard
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hey,

2012/5/11 Michael Stahl <[hidden email]>:

> On 11/05/12 15:57, Stefan Knorr (Astron) wrote:
>> Meanwhile, there's an implementation detail that I would find useful to know:
>> how are data bars and colour scales implemented in ODF? Are there
>> styles for them [1]? Would styles make sense from your perspective?
>> Actually, are data bars a specced ODF feature, or is this an extension
>> of the spec?
>
> see thread "How to add color scales to ODF?":
>
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.devel/29440
>
> and whether to use styles or not is what the thread is mainly about :)
>

But this will only be something for storing them. Internally we will
not use styles for color scales and data abrs. They will save the
necessary information directly and skip the over- engineered style
handling in calc core.

Using styles for the user does not make sense and we should only over
usefule choices for the user there. In case of color scales it will
the type of the point, the value/formula if needed, and the color. For
data bars this will be a bit more complex and we need to limit us for
now to some basic features. Length of the shortest and of the longest
bar and the color of the data bar. Mostly the MSO 2007 opetions +
maybe the option from 2010 allowing to mark that negative values are
painted independently in another color, and that the zero point is at
the center of the cell. I'll try to support the data bar features from
Office 2007 and have no idea yet if it is possible to add one or two
of the useful 2010 features too.

Regards,
Markus

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hello all,

I've updated the proposal with data bars/color scales in mind...

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Conditional_Formatting

I've tried to describe it in the wiki... if there are questions, don't
hesitate to ask.


Astron.

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john.pratt john.pratt
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] conditional format dialog

Hello all,

I've added my own suggestions for changes to the conditional formatting dialogues as an end user of conditional formatting.  (I'm not using them daily yet due to a bug.)

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Conditional_Formatting#Proposal_by_John_Pratt

I've tried to describe it in the wiki... if there are questions, don't hesitate to ask or discuss.

John Pratt
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