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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] named formatting attributs overwrite automatic formatting attributs (paragraph / character)

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Rafael Rocha Daud Rafael Rocha Daud
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] named formatting attributs overwrite automatic formatting attributs (paragraph / character)

Hello Maxime

This is intended behaviour. LibreOffice makes an assumption that when
you apply a style you want the paragraph to look like that, so it
overrides the direct formatting that had been applied to the whole
paragraph. The assumption works otherwise when the direct formatting was
affecting only a portion: you want the paragraph to look like the style,
but you want that portion to retain it's direct formatting.

Generally, direct formatting overrides styles, but they are not really
meant to be used in conjunction, but you still can if you want to. The
best thing to do in your specific case is to change the style itself so
it applies your bold atribute (or you may create a new style, based on
that one, to do that). The second best thing is to apply the direct
formatting after applying the style (but remember you will have to do
that for each paragraph you want that atribute in, and you will have to
re-do it if you later change the paragraph style again.

Hope that helps.

> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:25:56 +0200
> From: Maxime de Roucy<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Libreoffice] named formatting
> attributs overwrite automatic formatting attributs (paragraph /
> character)
> To: libreoffice-dev<[hidden email]>
> Cc: Cor Nouws<[hidden email]>, ux-advise
> <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
> Message-ID:<1333005956.1310.41.camel@max-desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello,
>
> I have been ask to rewrite my mail with the term "direct
> formatting" (which means with the buttons) and "style formatting" (which
> means with the "Style and Formatting" window).
>
> So here it is :
>
> I am wondering, when I apply a direct character formatting attribut on a
> portion of text (not a whole paragraph) (for example I clic on bold in
> the "Formatting" toolbar) and then apply a style character formatting
> attribut on the same portion of text (for example "Internet Link"), the
> attributs are merged.
>
> When I apply a direct character formatting attribut to a paragraph (for
> example I clic on bold in the "Formatting" toolbar) and the apply a
> style paragraph formatting attribut (for example "Default") on the same
> paragraph, the style attribut overwrite the automatic one (the bold
> attribut disappear).
>
> For my part I think this should be fixed, I mean that both paragraph and
> character attributs should have the same behavior (overwriting or
> merging).
>
> What do you think ?
> - am I wrong ? (Not my choice?)
> - Should the style paragraph formatting attribut be merge with the
> direct one ? (My first choice)
> - Should the style character formatting attribut overwrite the direct
> one ? (My second choice)
>
> Regards
>
> Maxime de Roucy
>
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Jean-Francois Nifenecker Jean-Francois Nifenecker
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] named formatting attributs overwrite automatic formatting attributs (paragraph / character)

Hi,

Le 29/03/2012 22:09, Rafael Rocha Daud a écrit :

>
> This is intended behaviour. LibreOffice makes an assumption that when
> you apply a style you want the paragraph to look like that, so it
> overrides the direct formatting that had been applied to the whole
> paragraph. The assumption works otherwise when the direct formatting was
> affecting only a portion: you want the paragraph to look like the style,
> but you want that portion to retain it's direct formatting.
>
> Generally, direct formatting overrides styles, but they are not really
> meant to be used in conjunction, but you still can if you want to. The
> best thing to do in your specific case is to change the style itself so
> it applies your bold atribute (or you may create a new style, based on
> that one, to do that). The second best thing is to apply the direct
> formatting after applying the style (but remember you will have to do
> that for each paragraph you want that atribute in, and you will have to
> re-do it if you later change the paragraph style again.
>

To me there are two questions : the one Maxime asked, ie the homogeneity
between paragraph style and character style use. The second one is
whether the tool should encourage to a correct use of the tool or not.

Homogeneity

I share Maxime's thoughts and, imo, both style types should apply the
same, iow, applying a style should replace the underlying formatting
(direct or style).

Correct use

Styles are the first reason to adopt LibreOffice. This should be highly
emphasized and promoted. As a trainer, I always bring questions back to
styles: "3 times upon 2, using a style solves the problem" (yes, 3 times
upon 2 ;). Hence, direct formatting should be discouraged. Better yet,
for instance, pressing the "B"old toolbutton should apply the correct
character style (bold emphasis by default) instead of setting the bold
property to the underlying characters.

Side note: I feel a very important need for table styles in Writer.

--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux
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Maxime de Roucy Maxime de Roucy
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] named formatting attributs overwrite automatic formatting attributs (paragraph / character)

Hello,

For me, character style and paragraph style should behave the same.
I change my mind and think that character style should behave like the
paragraph style :
If you apply a style on something (text or paragraph) the style should
overwrite the preview style and directs attributs on this something.
If you apply a direct attribut on something the direct attribut should
be merge with the preview style and direct attribut on this something.

But I don’t like very much the idea to force people to use style
formatting…

Regards

Maxime de Roucy

--
Maxime de Roucy
Groupe LINAGORA - OSSA
80 rue Roque de Fillol
92800 PUTEAUX
Tel. : 0 810 251 251


Le vendredi 30 mars 2012 à 07:53 +0200, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a
écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Le 29/03/2012 22:09, Rafael Rocha Daud a écrit :
> >
> > This is intended behaviour. LibreOffice makes an assumption that when
> > you apply a style you want the paragraph to look like that, so it
> > overrides the direct formatting that had been applied to the whole
> > paragraph. The assumption works otherwise when the direct formatting was
> > affecting only a portion: you want the paragraph to look like the style,
> > but you want that portion to retain it's direct formatting.
> >
> > Generally, direct formatting overrides styles, but they are not really
> > meant to be used in conjunction, but you still can if you want to. The
> > best thing to do in your specific case is to change the style itself so
> > it applies your bold atribute (or you may create a new style, based on
> > that one, to do that). The second best thing is to apply the direct
> > formatting after applying the style (but remember you will have to do
> > that for each paragraph you want that atribute in, and you will have to
> > re-do it if you later change the paragraph style again.
> >
>
> To me there are two questions : the one Maxime asked, ie the homogeneity
> between paragraph style and character style use. The second one is
> whether the tool should encourage to a correct use of the tool or not.
>
> Homogeneity
>
> I share Maxime's thoughts and, imo, both style types should apply the
> same, iow, applying a style should replace the underlying formatting
> (direct or style).
>
> Correct use
>
> Styles are the first reason to adopt LibreOffice. This should be highly
> emphasized and promoted. As a trainer, I always bring questions back to
> styles: "3 times upon 2, using a style solves the problem" (yes, 3 times
> upon 2 ;). Hence, direct formatting should be discouraged. Better yet,
> for instance, pressing the "B"old toolbutton should apply the correct
> character style (bold emphasis by default) instead of setting the bold
> property to the underlying characters.
>
> Side note: I feel a very important need for table styles in Writer.
>

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