Thoughts about UI

Hi!

I really don't know whether there had been any discussion in the past,
but I want to share 2 blogpost of mine to you. I really hope you like
that ideas ;)

 1. http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/libreoffice-ui-prosposal/
 2. http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-prosposal-2/
 3. http://flosmind.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/libreoffice-ui-prosposal-2a/


--
Yours

Florian Reisinger


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Hi Florian,

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Florian Reisinger <[hidden email]>wrote:


It's funny -- a couple of years ago, I was thinking the exact same thing:
make a very flexible UI so anyone may customize the suite to their
liking. Over time, though, my ideas have evolved. I realized that simply
giving all the options does not make a good UI -- on the contrary, it makes
the UI hard to maintain and opens up a door to various usability bugs that
can arise from deep customization. Generally, giving lots of options tends
to result in many sub-par UI options instead of one excellent, polished
option. We don't want the user to have to waste time making the UI work
well for him. We want the UI to work well for him from the get-go.

So, if you really want to help us improve the UI, a good start would be
analyzing the weaknesses of the current UI and possible ways to improve
them. We don't really have developers who would be willing to use their
time for UI improvements yet,

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Mirek M. <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry, I accidentally hit send prematurely.

As I was saying, developers aren't very much interested in UI work right
now, so a grand restructuring of the whole UI is out of the question. UI
changes need to be incremental and well thought-out. Given that LibreOffice
is cross-platform, it's preferable to stick to each platform's default
theme as closely as possible (with the exception of Windows, on which MS
itself tends to not follow the default theme) and we need to maintain a
menu bar at least for Ubuntu and Mac OS X. It's also probably best to stick
with toolbars, given that they're basically universal across platforms
(unlike ribbons or sidebars) and tend to be the only "action containers" on
modern mobile platforms.

That said, there are a lot of things we could do better. The current
menu/toolbar/dialog system is a maze and makes it very tiring to accomplish
certain tasks. The current organization is messy, illogical, and
unnecessarily complex. I'll be starting an effort to rework the Options
dialog -- perhaps that's something you might want to help with.

Be sure to check out our wiki (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design)
for ways you can help out. You can talk to us this Saturday on our IRC
chat: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Hi and thanks for your answer, I will comment a lot ;)

Am 03.07.2012 17:56, schrieb Mirek M.: You are, of course, right but my thoughts (at least to me) are not a "
giving everyone a bunch of options".
In fact the "Ribbon UI" can be created easily, because there are only 2
things missing:
a) larger icons [Which should not be a blocker]
b) The icons are ought to be arranged in a specivic area freely -->
Maximum on personalization; minimum afford ;)

The major change is, that the toolbars on the top are not displayed
anymore, which means that there should be no toolbar anymore [if someone
is just writing.] Most of the time a specific set of function are
needed. So we have two approaches:

a) Try to get the user to create a toolbar (toolbars) with the menus
he/she needs
b) Do a "start" toolbar, which is in fact that what we currently have ;)
, expect the opportunity to hide that ( The hide affects all toolbars on
the top...)

So now you might be asking: What does he want to do with all the other
toolbars??

The answer is simple: Nothing - currently.
If someone has the time to add a context sensitive toolbar to the Ribbon
menu it would be nice, of course, but not a must...


Hm, IMHO: If you are changing something it won't be perfect from the
very beginning....


>> Generally, giving lots of options tends
>> to result in many sub-par UI options instead of one excellent, polished
>> option. We don't want the user to have to waste time making the UI work
>> well for him. We want the UI to work well for him from the get-go.
>>
>> So, if you really want to help us improve the UI, a good start would be
>> analyzing the weaknesses of the current UI and possible ways to improve
>> them. We don't really have developers who would be willing to use their
>> time for UI improvements yet,
Because we didn't have a fantasic idea yet ( Okay, at least I missed the
idea...)

>>
> Sorry, I accidentally hit send prematurely.
Never mind ;)

>
> As I was saying, developers aren't very much interested in UI work right
> now, so a grand restructuring of the whole UI is out of the question. UI
> changes need to be incremental and well thought-out.
Okay, I don't know weather my idea is well thought-out now ( Sometimes
it will be our idea, but see it as a start ;)), but IMHO the changes can
be incremental ;)

>   Given that LibreOffice
> is cross-platform, it's preferable to stick to each platform's default
> theme as closely as possible (with the exception of Windows, on which MS
> itself tends to not follow the default theme)
LOL, didn't know that's true
> and we need to maintain a
> menu bar at least for Ubuntu and Mac OS X.
In my idea we still have that ( Ribbon is a option, but IMHO the UI
should get some favourites, quick ;))

>   It's also probably best to stick
> with toolbars, given that they're basically universal across platforms
> (unlike ribbons or sidebars) and tend to be the only "action containers" on
> modern mobile platforms.

To be honest: The UI for a mobile platform and the one for desktop users
should be poles apart from each other... I can't see the point of Win8
[havn't tried yet] it simply is (sorry for the sharp word) stupid to
want someone to use something with a mouse or a fingere at the same time...
>
> That said, there are a lot of things we could do better.
+1 totally agree
> The current
> menu/toolbar/dialog system is a maze and makes it very tiring to accomplish
> certain tasks. The current organization is messy, illogical, and
> unnecessarily complex. I'll be starting an effort to rework the Options
> dialog -- perhaps that's something you might want to help with.

Of course, but only with rough drawing with sharp ideas behind ;)
To be honest: I can't draw at all ;)
BTW: Link please

>
> Be sure to check out our wiki (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design)
> for ways you can help out. You can talk to us this Saturday on our IRC
> chat: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
>

Looking forward for your comments

--
Florian Reisinger


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Hi Florian,

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Florian Reisinger <[hidden email]>wrote:

>  You are, of course, right but my thoughts (at least to me) are not a "
> giving everyone a bunch of options".
> In fact the "Ribbon UI" can be created easily, because there are only 2
> things missing:
>

We don't want to create a ribbon UI for a number of reasons. It has a
patent pending on it. It's bulky and non-standard. It's not touch-friendly.
And it can be aggravatingly complex and cluttered (just look at Windows 8's
Explorer).

Toolbars are touch-friendly. They're the cornerstone of most software UIs,
especially mobile UIs. They're easy to look through, easy to customize,
simple, and universal. If designed well, they can be incredibly powerful
without being bulky or cluttered.

a) larger icons [Which should not be a blocker]
>

We do have a large icons mode.

b) The icons are ought to be arranged in a specivic area freely --> Maximum
> on personalization; minimum afford ;)
>

We have this as well (under the "Customize..." dialog).

>
> The major change is, that the toolbars on the top are not displayed
> anymore, which means that there should be no toolbar anymore [if someone is
> just writing.]


I don't see how this is beneficial. Hiding commands goes against almost
every platform's HIG and also against our own design principles
(ux-discovery) [1].
Maybe I just understand you wrong.


> Most of the time a specific set of function are needed. So we have two
> approaches:
>
> a) Try to get the user to create a toolbar (toolbars) with the menus
> he/she needs
>

I don't really understand this sentence. By "menus", do you mean commands?
I don't think there's the need for users to create custom toolbars most of
the time. The current toolbar layout isn't great but it's far from unusable.

b) Do a "start" toolbar, which is in fact that what we currently have ;) ,
> expect the opportunity to hide that ( The hide affects all toolbars on the
> top...)
>

Sorry, I don't understand this either.
What do you mean by a "start" toolbar? Why would it be better than what we
currently have?

We don't want change for the sake of change, we want change for better
usability.





I disagree. Large click areas are beneficial for mouse users -- they make
buttons very easy to target.

Chrome, among others, has proven that a UI can be as suitable for mouse
input as for touch input.
Many websites work great with touch now. I'm writing this in GMail, which
is very touch friendly. In fact, all of Google's services are pretty
touch-friendy now.
Gnome Shell is a delight to use with the mouse, yet has large target areas
that make it work just as well with touch input.
Even LibreOffice is quite usable on a touch-screen, especially with large
icons enabled and large menu items (it's great in Gnome).


I haven't started it yet.
I'll get to it when I have time.

>
>> Be sure to check out our wiki (https://wiki.**
>> documentfoundation.org/Design<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design>
>> )
>> for ways you can help out. You can talk to us this Saturday on our IRC
>> chat: https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/Design/**Meetings<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings>
>>
>
> Looking forward for your comments


[1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Thanks again for your answer Mirek ( I really had to know why ;))

Am 04.07.2012 00:27, schrieb Mirek M.: Okay, I see the point.
>
> Toolbars are touch-friendly. They're the cornerstone of most software UIs,
> especially mobile UIs. They're easy to look through, easy to customize,
> simple, and universal. If designed well, they can be incredibly powerful
> without being bulky or cluttered.
+1
>
> a) larger icons [Which should not be a blocker]
> We do have a large icons mode.
>
> b) The icons are ought to be arranged in a specivic area freely --> Maximum
>> on personalization; minimum afford ;)
>>
> We have this as well (under the "Customize..." dialog).

Hm, I wrote a manual about that and forgot it - sorry
>
>> The major change is, that the toolbars on the top are not displayed
>> anymore, which means that there should be no toolbar anymore [if someone is
>> just writing.]
>
> I don't see how this is beneficial. Hiding commands goes against almost
> every platform's HIG and also against our own design principles
> (ux-discovery) [1].

Thanks for the link...
Year it is "command"
This is now Ribbon specific and skipped (And some uncommented text is
also skipped
[...]
> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles 


--
Florian Reisinger


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to [hidden email]
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted