[libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

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MENGUAL Jean-Philippe MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
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[libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

Hi,

I just want to report that LO a11y is regressing more and more between
each new release. The latest usable on Linux was 4.2.6. After known
regressions in 4.3, things go down. I now test 5.1.1, and now it's
really hard. 1st in Writer, access to format and style bar becomes (ery
difficult with keyboard. Next, tables are still nearly impossible to be
browsed properly. Bullets are not spoken at all and don't appear.

In Calc, strong lag at filling cells, even in little tables. Weird
characters in braille which fill the cells and hide the proper text.
Some cells are not read, interface is not accessible. Well... I can
report bugs, but I'm worry. A11y tends not to be considered at all in
developments by anyone.

To make Writer accessible, work is estimated for 4 months, 60000 euros,
with 1 certificated LO dev + screen reader expert. While I'm thinking of
how to finance this, LO should at least be aware of the problem to set a
policy in order to avoid future regressions. Noawadays, LO is broken, on
Linux as on Windows, while Linux had advance.

Well, I wanted to report the problem. If I can help in some thoughts
(non-reg test, review to fix situation, etc), LO should work actively
with Igalia and Collabora to fix things. Otherwise, we can imagine a
come back on Office at work for impaired people. At least, please alert
all devs of this bad tendance.

Regards,

--

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

HYPRA, progressons ensemble

Tél.: 01 84 73 06 61
Mail: [hidden email]

Site Web: http://hypra.fr

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Alex ARNAUD Alex ARNAUD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

Le 21/03/2016 14:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit :
> Hi,
Hi
> To make Writer accessible, work is estimated for 4 months, 60000 euros,
> with 1 certificated LO dev + screen reader expert. While I'm thinking of
> how to finance this, LO should at least be aware of the problem to set a
> policy in order to avoid future regressions. Noawadays, LO is broken, on
> Linux as on Windows, while Linux had advance.
It's very urgent to make accessibility in the main priorities of LO
community.
> Well, I wanted to report the problem. If I can help in some thoughts
> (non-reg test, review to fix situation, etc), LO should work actively
> with Igalia and Collabora to fix things. Otherwise, we can imagine a
> come back on Office at work for impaired people. At least, please alert
> all devs of this bad tendance.
Shouldn't we contact people with impact on dev? Should we contact
developers to alert them directly in dev mailling list ? We should
prepare (maybe in pad or in wiki) an important message to alert them on
the urgent situation that you point today. Office suite is one of the
main component of the home and work computer usage so is accessibility
is a critical stuff.

Best regards.

--
Alex ARNAUD


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sophi sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

In reply to this post by MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Hi Jean-Philippe,

Sorry for top posting, but just to let you know that I've contacted the
UX/Design team about your mail and will follow-up on this.
Best would be that we fill bug on each regression you found on master,
but I'll come back to you about this once I've an overview of who will
deal with them.
Cheers
Sophie
Le 21/03/2016 14:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> I just want to report that LO a11y is regressing more and more between
> each new release. The latest usable on Linux was 4.2.6. After known
> regressions in 4.3, things go down. I now test 5.1.1, and now it's
> really hard. 1st in Writer, access to format and style bar becomes (ery
> difficult with keyboard. Next, tables are still nearly impossible to be
> browsed properly. Bullets are not spoken at all and don't appear.
>
> In Calc, strong lag at filling cells, even in little tables. Weird
> characters in braille which fill the cells and hide the proper text.
> Some cells are not read, interface is not accessible. Well... I can
> report bugs, but I'm worry. A11y tends not to be considered at all in
> developments by anyone.
>
> To make Writer accessible, work is estimated for 4 months, 60000 euros,
> with 1 certificated LO dev + screen reader expert. While I'm thinking of
> how to finance this, LO should at least be aware of the problem to set a
> policy in order to avoid future regressions. Noawadays, LO is broken, on
> Linux as on Windows, while Linux had advance.
>
> Well, I wanted to report the problem. If I can help in some thoughts
> (non-reg test, review to fix situation, etc), LO should work actively
> with Igalia and Collabora to fix things. Otherwise, we can imagine a
> come back on Office at work for impaired people. At least, please alert
> all devs of this bad tendance.
>
> Regards,
>


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IRC: sophi
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Vincenzo Rubano Vincenzo Rubano
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

In reply to this post by MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Just wanted to report that lo accessibility is broken on OS X as well!


> Il giorno 21 mar 2016, alle ore 14:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> Hi,
>
> I just want to report that LO a11y is regressing more and more between
> each new release. The latest usable on Linux was 4.2.6. After known
> regressions in 4.3, things go down. I now test 5.1.1, and now it's
> really hard. 1st in Writer, access to format and style bar becomes (ery
> difficult with keyboard. Next, tables are still nearly impossible to be
> browsed properly. Bullets are not spoken at all and don't appear.
>
> In Calc, strong lag at filling cells, even in little tables. Weird
> characters in braille which fill the cells and hide the proper text.
> Some cells are not read, interface is not accessible. Well... I can
> report bugs, but I'm worry. A11y tends not to be considered at all in
> developments by anyone.
>
> To make Writer accessible, work is estimated for 4 months, 60000 euros,
> with 1 certificated LO dev + screen reader expert. While I'm thinking of
> how to finance this, LO should at least be aware of the problem to set a
> policy in order to avoid future regressions. Noawadays, LO is broken, on
> Linux as on Windows, while Linux had advance.
>
> Well, I wanted to report the problem. If I can help in some thoughts
> (non-reg test, review to fix situation, etc), LO should work actively
> with Igalia and Collabora to fix things. Otherwise, we can imagine a
> come back on Office at work for impaired people. At least, please alert
> all devs of this bad tendance.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
>
> HYPRA, progressons ensemble
>
> Tél.: 01 84 73 06 61
> Mail: [hidden email]
>
> Site Web: http://hypra.fr
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

 
 
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zahra a zahra a
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

hi.
can you please explane about accessibility regression on windows in
version 5.1.1?
because i did not test this version.
and one more question: can you tell me whats the best version in
accessibility on windows?
i want the version in 4.3 range and later.
thanks so much.

On 3/21/16, Vincenzo Rubano <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just wanted to report that lo accessibility is broken on OS X as well!
>
>
>> Il giorno 21 mar 2016, alle ore 14:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
>> <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just want to report that LO a11y is regressing more and more between
>> each new release. The latest usable on Linux was 4.2.6. After known
>> regressions in 4.3, things go down. I now test 5.1.1, and now it's
>> really hard. 1st in Writer, access to format and style bar becomes (ery
>> difficult with keyboard. Next, tables are still nearly impossible to be
>> browsed properly. Bullets are not spoken at all and don't appear.
>>
>> In Calc, strong lag at filling cells, even in little tables. Weird
>> characters in braille which fill the cells and hide the proper text.
>> Some cells are not read, interface is not accessible. Well... I can
>> report bugs, but I'm worry. A11y tends not to be considered at all in
>> developments by anyone.
>>
>> To make Writer accessible, work is estimated for 4 months, 60000 euros,
>> with 1 certificated LO dev + screen reader expert. While I'm thinking of
>> how to finance this, LO should at least be aware of the problem to set a
>> policy in order to avoid future regressions. Noawadays, LO is broken, on
>> Linux as on Windows, while Linux had advance.
>>
>> Well, I wanted to report the problem. If I can help in some thoughts
>> (non-reg test, review to fix situation, etc), LO should work actively
>> with Igalia and Collabora to fix things. Otherwise, we can imagine a
>> come back on Office at work for impaired people. At least, please alert
>> all devs of this bad tendance.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
>>
>> HYPRA, progressons ensemble
>>
>> Tél.: 01 84 73 06 61
>> Mail: [hidden email]
>>
>> Site Web: http://hypra.fr
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> Problems?
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>
>
>
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> deleted
>


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sophi sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

In reply to this post by Vincenzo Rubano
Hi Vincenzo,
Le 21/03/2016 15:33, Vincenzo Rubano a écrit :
> Just wanted to report that lo accessibility is broken on OS X as well!

Sorry to hear that, but we need details on what is broken. If you want
developers to take care of fixing what is broken, they need to know
exactly what is not working as expected. Be aware that volunteers work
on their spare time, so any help on your part will be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards
Sophie

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IRC: sophi
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MENGUAL Jean-Philippe MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

In reply to this post by sophi
Hi,

Thanks Sophie. I wait for any feedback. I'm aware I should fill bugs,
and I'll try doing it. But for example, so far, the caret lost in
tables, bug !eported by Jeanmarie Diggs, hasn't been confirmed or
handled at all. So I'm worry as bugs are not handled, for obvious
reasons (volunteers), but other come. Hence my worry.

Anyway I'll try to fill bugs again. And hope this mail will start a
common thought process.

Regards,


Le 21/03/2016 15:24, Sophie a écrit :

> Hi Jean-Philippe,
>
> Sorry for top posting, but just to let you know that I've contacted the
> UX/Design team about your mail and will follow-up on this.
> Best would be that we fill bug on each regression you found on master,
> but I'll come back to you about this once I've an overview of who will
> deal with them.
> Cheers
> Sophie
> Le 21/03/2016 14:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just want to report that LO a11y is regressing more and more between
>> each new release. The latest usable on Linux was 4.2.6. After known
>> regressions in 4.3, things go down. I now test 5.1.1, and now it's
>> really hard. 1st in Writer, access to format and style bar becomes (ery
>> difficult with keyboard. Next, tables are still nearly impossible to be
>> browsed properly. Bullets are not spoken at all and don't appear.
>>
>> In Calc, strong lag at filling cells, even in little tables. Weird
>> characters in braille which fill the cells and hide the proper text.
>> Some cells are not read, interface is not accessible. Well... I can
>> report bugs, but I'm worry. A11y tends not to be considered at all in
>> developments by anyone.
>>
>> To make Writer accessible, work is estimated for 4 months, 60000 euros,
>> with 1 certificated LO dev + screen reader expert. While I'm thinking of
>> how to finance this, LO should at least be aware of the problem to set a
>> policy in order to avoid future regressions. Noawadays, LO is broken, on
>> Linux as on Windows, while Linux had advance.
>>
>> Well, I wanted to report the problem. If I can help in some thoughts
>> (non-reg test, review to fix situation, etc), LO should work actively
>> with Igalia and Collabora to fix things. Otherwise, we can imagine a
>> come back on Office at work for impaired people. At least, please alert
>> all devs of this bad tendance.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>
>

--

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

HYPRA, progressons ensemble

Tél.: 01 84 73 06 61
Mail: [hidden email]

Site Web: http://hypra.fr

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sophi sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

Hi Jean-Philippe
Le 21/03/2016 17:46, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> Thanks Sophie. I wait for any feedback. I'm aware I should fill bugs,
> and I'll try doing it. But for example, so far, the caret lost in
> tables, bug !eported by Jeanmarie Diggs, hasn't been confirmed or
> handled at all.

Could you give me the bug number, a search with "caret lost in tables"
didn't return anything.

 So I'm worry as bugs are not handled, for obvious
> reasons (volunteers), but other come. Hence my worry.

It's not easy to confirm a bug on accessibility, having all the tool and
environment installed is a bit specific, but usually Stuart is dealing
with those.
>
> Anyway I'll try to fill bugs again. And hope this mail will start a
> common thought process.

Let me know the number of the bugs you fill, I'll have a look to them.
Thanks :)
Cheers
Sophie

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

Sophi,

That is bug 87680No accessible caret-moved events in Writer tables

Affecting horizontal cursor--tab movement between table cells--IAccessible2 and ATK, probably NSAccess as well.

Unconfirmed--because no reliable test case.

Stuart
V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

In reply to this post by MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Sorry, nothing new here, and I would not characterize the LibreOffice development as becomming more inaccessible in ensuing releases.

MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote
... in Writer, access to format and style bar becomes (ery
difficult with keyboard.
Yes this is a problem, the F11 Styles & Formatting dialog was pushed into the Sidebar but remains SRC based.  F6, F10 sequence navigation is not fully supported, and there is a lack of keyboard shortcut/accelerator assignments for components in the Sidebar (tdf#84502).

The .src for the Styles & Formatting content panel in decks for each module are:

Writer
http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/source/ui/app/app.src

Calc
http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sc/source/ui/styleui/scstyles.src

Impress/Draw
http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sd/source/ui/app/res_bmp.src

Unfortunately the .src is not fully integrated into the .ui oriented Sidebar, and probably needs to be converted fully to .ui for seamless keyboard navigation behavior and provide quick help as accessible text.

That should probably be written up as a new a11y related enhancement.

... tables are still nearly impossible to be
browsed properly.
That is tdf#87680

Bullets are not spoken at all and don't appear.
That is tdf#93139


V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

This post was updated on .
V Stuart Foote wrote
... there is a lack of keyboard shortcut/accelerator assignments for components in the Sidebar (tdf#84502).
In addition to the "Add shortcut keys to each Sidebar Tab to open its content panel(s)" of tdf#84502,
Should also have included a link to tdf#69550 "Style keyboard shortcuts are undiscoverable" as the two are interelated to improving a11y support in the UI.
sophi sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] A11y regressions

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
Thanks a lot Stuart for your detailed answers :)
Cheers
Sophie
Le 21/03/2016 18:36, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

> Sorry, nothing new here, and I would not characterize the LibreOffice
> development as becomming more inaccessible in ensuing releases.
>
>
> MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote
>> ... in Writer, access to format and style bar becomes (ery
>> difficult with keyboard.
>
> Yes this is a problem, the F11 Styles & Formatting dialog was pushed into
> the Sidebar but remains SRC based.  F6, F10 sequence navigation is not fully
> supported, and there is a lack of keyboard shortcut/accelerator assignments
> for components in the Sidebar ( tdf#84502
> <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=84502>  ).
>
> The .src for the Styles & Formatting content panel in decks for each module
> are:
>
> Writer
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sw/source/ui/app/app.src
>
> Calc
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sc/source/ui/styleui/scstyles.src
>
> Impress/Draw
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/sd/source/ui/app/res_bmp.src
>
> Unfortunately the .src is not fully integrated into the .ui oriented
> Sidebar, and probably needs to be converted fully to .ui for seamless
> keyboard navigation behavior and provide quick help as accessible text.
>
> That should probably be written up as a new a11y related enhancement.
>
>
>> ... tables are still nearly impossible to be
>> browsed properly.
>
> That is  tdf#87680
> <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87680>  
>
>
>> Bullets are not spoken at all and don't appear.
>
> That is  tdf#93139
> <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93139>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-accessibility-A11y-regressions-tp4179166p4179185.html
> Sent from the Accessibility mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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