[libreoffice-l10n] Translating Most annoying bugs of 3.6.0

Hi,

I just finished localizing the release notes page on the wiki for the
upcoming 3.6.0 into Slovenian and at the end translated the list of
most annoying bugs in 3.6.0 (which will almost all be squashed in
3.6.1, if I understood correctly).
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/3.6

Since some look like stoppers, especially the extension/bundled
dictionary bug, I wonder what localization teams leads think about it.

What is an office suite without a broken basic spell-checking function?

lp, m.

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Hi,

2012/8/6 Martin Srebotnjak <[hidden email]>:
>
> Since some look like stoppers, especially the extension/bundled
> dictionary bug, I wonder what localization teams leads think about it.
>
> What is an office suite without a broken basic spell-checking function?
>
Workaround exists, and workaround does not have side effects, so it is
not a stopper.

Andras

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Well, call me stupid,
but 3.6.0 is a major release and one may put a warning thatitis still not
of production quality all over the place, but people will use it.
The workaround is complicated for an average mostly-office-suite-user that
might not even know where to launch command prompt.
I wonder what will happen when magazines start publishing reviews of a
major release office suite that cannot spell check, comparing it to
Office13 preview.

Well, it will be fun to watch. It seems that officialreleases becamebeta
releases.

To ask something more from my level of control - can a language team stop
or block a release of its language pack if it deems that the release is
substandard compared to the releases in the past so we are not a hostage of
such high level decisionmaking?

Lp, m.

Dne ponedeljek, 06. avgust 2012 je pošiljatelj Andras Timar <
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Martin Srebotnjak wrote (06-08-12 09:23)
> Well, call me stupid,

Call me stupid, cause I should have holidays ...
But I share your concerns.

> [...]
> Well, it will be fun to watch.

That wind will blow over too, but positive, no I don't think so.

> [...]
> To ask something more from my level of control - can a language team stop
> or block a release of its language pack if it deems that the release is
> substandard compared to the releases in the past so we are not a hostage of
> such high level decisionmaking?

If you use the old style download page, you can write the info that you
like, thus point people to 3.5.x and advice them about 3.6.0 / 3.6.1.
But the download links are added by a script. You might circumvent that
prolly by just using another page style for your download...

Cheers,

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  - http://nl.libreoffice.org
  - www.librelex.org


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On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 2:00 AM, Andras Timar <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm not convinced.  Kludgy workarounds are no excuse for not fixing
critical bugs before a major release.  I'm afraid that I have to agree
with Martin that I would have considered that particular bug a
blocker.  My general impression is that FOSS users are not hung up on
schedules and a delayed release is not a big deal, but missing major
features in a major release seems like a bad idea.

You never get a second chance to make a good first impression.

cjl

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Hi Martin, Chris, all,
On 06/08/2012 10:35, Chris Leonard wrote:
As already stated here, we need more people to QA the versions earlier
and help fix the bugs and the patches correcting them sooner.
This is not "them" deciding to release, "them" deciding to do PR, "them
deciding the localization circle or "them" deciding what is good or bas.
This is *us* making our product as good as possible. To achieve that, we
need more people in the QA area and nobody but *us*, all of us can bring
interest and manpower to this area of our project.
That said, I'm trying to find time and energy to test some tools that
would help to bring newcomers with absolutely no QA skills.
But what is your opinion, what would help your community to have
interest in testing the features and the localization to improve them
and provide the quality we all would like to get ?

Thanks in advance for your answers and actions, it's really something
our project have to improve, and your opinion and help is more than welcome.
Kind regards
Sophie

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I must agree. One of the main reasons LO is attractive to users of my
locale is the fact that it HAS proofing tools for our language. I
already hate the thought of my inbox if this goes live because I'll be
at the receiving end of dozens of email complaining that the spellcheck
doesn't work anymore. Which should also be a consideration - perhaps it
seems like a time-saving exercise to say "we'll fix it later" but that's
a false economy and does not take into account the time which will be
wasted by users and support people trying to calm down and support irate
end users.

Whether this was picked up late or not should be immaterial, as long as
it's *before* the release that's early enough. That's why they are
pre-releases. We're going to be the laughing stock of the office
software world, including AOO, if this goes out.

And as Chris said, I've never had complaints saying "the new release,
why is it 8 days late?" but I have had plenty of emails asking me why
the locale settings don't work (an old bug related only to my locale).

Bad medicine as Bart would say.

Michael

06/08/2012 09:35, sgrìobh Chris Leonard:

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Hi Michael, all,
On 06/08/2012 11:41, Michael Bauer wrote:
So why don't you focus your users to use 3.5.x instead ? 3.6.1 will be
release very soon, may be they can wait for the next release too, we
(the development project that we represent) know that 3.6.0 won't be as
stable as 3.5.x series. How many of your community have tested the RCs
of this last version. Rejecting the fault and criticizing others won't
help to respect our release plan which is as important for the companies
providing tested and certified versions of our software as bug free
versions.
Again, I ask that question: what would be your solution to improve the
QA situation in the frame of our development process ?

Kind regards
Sophie

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Hi Sophie,

06/08/2012 10:53, sgrìobh Sophie Gautier:
> How many of your community have tested the RCs of this last version.
I'm barely getting enough sleep at the moment so probably no-one - there
aren't enough tech-savy users in my community who would know the
difference between the release and the RC, let alone use them. We
actually run install sessions because most people are unsure about how
to install it to begin with (which is, by the way, a general problem,
not a specific LO issue).

And before you chide me for not trying the RC - I did a lot of testing
before our first release and during the first few version following
that. I then got lax because I somehow assumed that people wouldn't
break something critical that already worked and then release it. I run
over two dozen localization projects for my locale, I'm sorry but that
means I have to make some concessions to my need for sleep ;)

> Rejecting the fault and criticizing others won't help to respect our
> release plan which is as important for the companies providing tested
> and certified versions of our software as bug free versions.
Since when did the release plan become so important that it can't be
nudged when needed? It's a plan, not the holy grail.
> Again, I ask that question: what would be your solution to improve the
> QA situation in the frame of our development process ?
To have a bigger team and I'm working on that but until that happens, I
can't do much except to start using the RCs in future rather than the
releases because having a larger team will mean having to pay them.
Which of course makes providing support tricky, if I'm looking at a
different version on screen than the person at the other end of the
screen or phone. >.<

Michael

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Hi Michael, all,
On 06/08/2012 12:04, Michael Bauer wrote:
Most of us here are in the same case of doing our best for the release.
My question is how we can teach the users, bring interest to them to
participate and not only be users at the end of the process.
>
>> Rejecting the fault and criticizing others won't help to respect our
>> release plan which is as important for the companies providing tested
>> and certified versions of our software as bug free versions.
> Since when did the release plan become so important that it can't be
> nudged when needed? It's a plan, not the holy grail.

The release has already been delayed for a week. You know that when this
bug is very important for you, another one will be very important for
me, and still another one for my neighbor, we could delayed it for weeks...
>> Again, I ask that question: what would be your solution to improve the
>> QA situation in the frame of our development process ?
> To have a bigger team and I'm working on that but until that happens, I
> can't do much except to start using the RCs in future rather than the
> releases because having a larger team will mean having to pay them.
> Which of course makes providing support tricky, if I'm looking at a
> different version on screen than the person at the other end of the
> screen or phone. >.<

what would help to bring more people in ? tools, process, meetings ? how
can we bring our community to help here, not only by meaning you
investing more time (this is not my aim really :) but by having an
attractive QA process ?

Kind regards
Sophie
>
> Michael
>


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06/08/2012 11:14, sgrìobh Sophie Gautier:
>
> The release has already been delayed for a week. You know that when
> this bug is very important for you, another one will be very important
> for me, and still another one for my neighbor, we could delayed it for
> weeks...
If the end product is better for it... yes? Surely there's a ...
hierarchy of bugs in terms of the effect on the end user?
>
> what would help to bring more people in ? tools, process, meetings ?
> how can we bring our community to help here, not only by meaning you
> investing more time (this is not my aim really :) but by having an
> attractive QA process ?
It's a very kind offer, much appreciated. But I'm afraid money will have
to get involved (which is why it's taking time to set up). We all know,
I'm sure, that out of a pool of X people, only a small % will
participate. I once did some rough and ready numbers on the percentages
(based on the number of contributors to the "big" projects like LO and
Mozilla in countries of comparable technology levels) and it would
appear that the ratio of people who are willing to spend serious amounts
of time (for no money) on something like Open Source development is
actually infinitesimal. Something about the human psyche I guess.

Which means that a language with less than 100,000 speakers is likely to
rely on a single person for ALL their OS, including l10n. Anything above
that, they're either getting paid or your dealing with a very odd
locale. Scottish Gaelic has less than 60,000...

Michael


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Dear Sophie,

Dne ponedeljek, 06. avgust 2012 je pošiljatelj Sophie Gautier <
[hidden email]> napisal: My question is how we can teach the users, bring interest to them to
participate and not only be users at the end of the process.
>>
>>> Rejecting the fault and criticizing others won't help to respect our
>>> release plan which is as important for the companies providing tested
>>> and certified versions of our software as bug free versions.
>>
>> Since when did the release plan become so important that it can't be
>> nudged when needed? It's a plan, not the holy grail.
>
> The release has already been delayed for a week. You know that when this
bug is very important for you, another one will be very important for me,
and still another one for my neighbor, we could delayed it for weeks...

Well, spell checking is a major thing for all users in an office suite.

So we will release 3.7 if printing only works with a workaround, and 3.8.0
if keyboard only works with a workaround?

If LO would not set this release date in the summer vacation period of the
northern hemisphere, maybe more of us would be able to test... so that is
my advice for future release plans.
can we bring our community to help here, not only by meaning you investing
more time (this is not my aim really :) but by having an attractive QA
process ? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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Hi Martin,
On 06/08/2012 12:33, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:
> Dear Sophie,
[...]

>> The release has already been delayed for a week. You know that when this
> bug is very important for you, another one will be very important for me,
> and still another one for my neighbor, we could delayed it for weeks...
>
> Well, spell checking is a major thing for all users in an office suite.
>
> So we will release 3.7 if printing only works with a workaround, and 3.8.0
> if keyboard only works with a workaround?

So your community is already testing the builds to make sure it won't
happen ? We all agree this bug is annoying and as I said you can still
focus your users on 3.5.x version or the next 3.6.1 which will be ready
when they'll come back from vacations.
>
> If LO would not set this release date in the summer vacation period of the
> northern hemisphere, maybe more of us would be able to test... so that is
> my advice for future release plans.

Releases were available for tests before that, this is also why I'm
asking on your feedback to improve our QA process and why I search how
we can find more people to help.

Kind regards
Sophie

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Sophie,

Dne ponedeljek, 06. avgust 2012 je pošiljatelj Sophie Gautier <
[hidden email]> napisal: 3.8.0
>> if keyboard only works with a workaround?
>
> So your community is already testing the builds to make sure it won't
happen ? We all agree this bug is annoying and as I said you can still
focus your users on 3.5.x version or the next 3.6.1 which will be ready
when they'll come back from vacations.
>>

I will stop right here and now, because you are really pissing me off.

I am single handedly translating lo since ooo 24, am occasionally testing
it, when such tests were available for ooo, am promoting lo in slovenian
with translation of news about new releases and release notes and I am even
in the middle of translating the getting started guide, so you really
picked the wrong person go bring to the verge of getting berzerk.
Just say if you want it, i can abandon this project in a second.

I have never raised my voice before for unimportant matters with oo and lo
developers.

So I guess you will use this same argument, "why didnt you test it
yourself", with reviwers of lo?

The future is bright.

>> If LO would not set this release date in the summer vacation period of
the
>> northern hemisphere, maybe more of us would be able to test... so that is
>> my advice for future release plans.
>
> Releases were available for tests before that, this is also why I'm
asking on your feedback to improve our QA process and why I search how we
can find more people to help.
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie
>
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Martin,
On 06/08/2012 13:12, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:
I'm sorry if you feel hurt by what I said. This is really not what I
mean, I know well that you're working hard for OOo and now LO.
I'm also alone to do the French localization and I'm aware of the long
and difficult work it is. If you read me again, I used the word
"community" and was not pointing you personally. What I would like is to
have the feedback of the people here to improve the QA process in our
project. We need a strong QA process, we miss it currently and I think
that some people here could have 2 or 3 users that could be interested
but don't know how to join. This is only what I'm asking and really not
trying to under value the work you're doing.
Sorry again that you feel hurt.
Kind regards
Sophie

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The Document Foundation

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Dear Sophie,

Sadly, the L10n community is a very poor place to recruit QA testing.
Why?  Because just as the new features are rolling in that need
testing (on a tight release schedule), the new strings are rolling in
that need L10n.  There are only so many hours available between
feature freeze/string freeze and release.

That is not to say that all community members do not bear some
responsibility for quality, just that the localizer's busiest period
exactly coincides with the critical testing period towards the end of
a release cycle.

The bug in question (spell-checking) is not even directly a L10n
related bug, but it *is* an issue that is very near and dear to the
hearts of localizers, especially those engaged in localizing word
processing tools.  Many have spent countless hours, above and beyond
UI L10n, developing word lists and working to enhance their native
language spell-checking capabilities and as noted, many are
more-or-less "teams" of one.  This may account for some of the passion
evoked.

Automation of testing is an excellent idea, collaborators/allies in
that area may often found among those people who have a focus on
accessibility (a11y), the reason for this is that the alternate
input/output mechanisms introduced for the purpose of a11y are exactly
the sorts of hooks that robotic scripts need to do automated testing.
Personally, I've always viewed a11y as another form of i18n/L10n, but
there is often a small group in any project that is most passionate
about a11y issues and they are very valuable contributors indeed.

I agree with your comments that there should not be an "us" versus
"them" distinction within a project.  The burden for keeping clear
communications open rests equally on all, but it is not necessarily
all that common for localizers to attend release team meetings or bug
triage sessions as they are focused on other areas.  As the
Translation Team Coordinator of Sugar Labs, I try to attend as many of
those as possible to speak out on behalf of i18n/L10n concerns.  It is
not unreasonable for individual language L10n contributors to expect
that the global level i18n/L10n team coordinators are acting in a
similar way to speak on behalf of the entire L10n community and the
issues that matter to them (like spell-checking and dictionary
support).  The "us" versus "them" dynamic unfortunately arises when
localizers do not feel that developers or the release team decision
makers have adequately taken the needs of the international community
into account.

cjl

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Hi Chris,
On 06/08/2012 19:04, Chris Leonard wrote:
> Dear Sophie,

First thanks a lot for your feedback and sharing your experience here,
it's much appreciated
>
> Sadly, the L10n community is a very poor place to recruit QA testing.
> Why?  Because just as the new features are rolling in that need
> testing (on a tight release schedule), the new strings are rolling in
> that need L10n.  There are only so many hours available between
> feature freeze/string freeze and release.

Yes, I agree, but l10n people may be in contact with other actors or
users in their own language, this is why I asked here.
>
> That is not to say that all community members do not bear some
> responsibility for quality, just that the localizer's busiest period
> exactly coincides with the critical testing period towards the end of
> a release cycle.

Yes, it's true, however we have nightly builds that are available before
localization cycle. I'm well aware that l10n people usually don't deal
only with our project so I understand it's not easy at all.
>
> The bug in question (spell-checking) is not even directly a L10n
> related bug, but it *is* an issue that is very near and dear to the
> hearts of localizers, especially those engaged in localizing word
> processing tools.  Many have spent countless hours, above and beyond
> UI L10n, developing word lists and working to enhance their native
> language spell-checking capabilities and as noted, many are
> more-or-less "teams" of one.  This may account for some of the passion
> evoked.

and I really understand it, being a localizer in more than one project too.
>
> Automation of testing is an excellent idea, collaborators/allies in
> that area may often found among those people who have a focus on
> accessibility (a11y), the reason for this is that the alternate
> input/output mechanisms introduced for the purpose of a11y are exactly
> the sorts of hooks that robotic scripts need to do automated testing.
> Personally, I've always viewed a11y as another form of i18n/L10n, but
> there is often a small group in any project that is most passionate
> about a11y issues and they are very valuable contributors indeed.

This is very interesting, I'm used to test the FR version using Orca,
but I didn't viewed it that way. Well, you're right of course. What I would like is to get in touch with
the users of the product in language communities. I thought that l10n
team could help me and may be even get feedback on the needs to improve
the situation. But I'm also aware of the amount of work done by the l10n
teams on open source projects so I understand too. I'll try to reach the
webmasters of our localized sites to try to get in touch with some
possible testers throughout their help.

Thanks again
Kind regards
Sophie

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Hi Cor, *,

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Cor Nouws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...]
> If you use the old style download page, you can write the info that you
> like, thus point people to 3.5.x and advice them about 3.6.0 / 3.6.1.

You can add separate message texts for .0 and .1 in the new-style
download page for  a while now.

ciao
Christian

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2012/8/6 Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]>
Hi All,

while I agree with Martin considering the spell check bug a showstopper,
please Sophie, could you post again a mail regarding the procedure for QA
with Orca? It could be interesting to have a regular reminder of it, so
that Leaders could forward it to users/collaborators and maybe have more
people for testing.

Ciao
--
Valter
*Open Source is better!*
KDE: www.kde.org
Kubuntu: www.kubuntu.org
LibreOffice: www.libreoffice.org

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Hi Valter,

On 09/08/2012 12:51, Valter Mura wrote:
I'm not sure of what you mean with testing with Orca, I use it just to
check that LibO is working with a screen reader (Orca in that case) but
I don't have a specific process to test ally functionality. May be Chris
could give more detail on how they proceed.
But what you ask is exactly what I was searching for : a way to reach
your users/collaborators in order to set a QA process with those
interested to participate :) And if it's what you mean, yes, I can send
a reminder any time needed. But first I would like to know what would be
the best for them to participate (a dedicated mailing list, irc channel,
just a page on the wiki... in their language or in English ?). The tool
we can use currently is Litmus, we can switch to another more recent one
if needed, but it's just a tool, we need the community around it for now :)

Kind regards
Sophie

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